From: Ellen K. 

On Tue, 6 Dec 2005 15:18:48 -0500, "Gary Britt"
 wrote in message :

>
>"Ellen K."  wrote in message
>news:48r9p118855bqipa6t7bvbqflqk0n6ufar{at}4ax.com...
>> On Sun, 4 Dec 2005 19:16:44 -0500, "Gary Britt"
>>  wrote in message
:
>>
>> >
>> >
>> From what source do you derive the "information" that
Israelis "are
>> afraid that their beliefs might not stand up to exposure to others
>> beliefs"?
>
>Why else have this vague and hard to define law about proslytization.
>
Not vague or hard to define, see my previous post.

>Thanks for the clarification on citizenship.  What percentage of non-jews
>seeking immigration and citizenship are approved?
>
I'm sorry, I don't have any statistics.

I do know that ALL the Ethiopians who came in were the subject of
discussion as to whether they were halachically Jewish, and again, despite
this it was the government who brought them.  I stopped following this
years ago but I vaguely remember that most of them decided to do official
conversions so that there should be no question about their membership in
the Jewish people -- they FELT Jewish and in fact were persecuted in
Ethiopia for being Jewish.  Their kessim (their word for what we call
rabbis) encouraged everyone to undergo a proper conversion.

It is also common knowledge that a large percentage of Russian immigrants
are not halachically Jewish.   (To be halachically Jewish a
person has to be born of a Jewish mother or undergo an Orthodox
conversion.)   A lot of the Russians are either non-Jews married to
Jews, or people whose Jewish ancestors are on their father's side.

>
>>
>> >It would be like Jerry Falwell being in charge of
>> >determining who can get married and who can be a citizen in
this country.
>> >The religious in Israel is so intertwined with the state that
it seems to
>me
>> >aid to Israel is in fact aid to a religious organization that is
>forbidden
>> >by USA separation of church and state principles as they are
advocated by
>> >the ACLU and like organizations.
>> Now you are a fan of the ACLU?   That's pretty interesting.
>
>No, no fan of the ACLU.  Just trying to show how it seems to me.
>
>Yes Israel is a democracy, but when that phrase is used in a manner that
>might convey the meaning its a democracy in the same form or similar form to
>USA as regards personal rights and liberties, that's what I was objecting
>to.
>
Well, is Germany a democracy?  Since posting my earlier message I
remembered that public schools also have Religionsunterricht (religious
instruction) as part of the curriculum -- parents can sign the kids up for
"Ethics" instead of Catholic or Protestant, but any kid so signed
up is of course immediately odd one out.  Also, two of the major political
parties have "Chirstian" in the party name.   So if Germany can
have
"Christian" parties, there is no reason why Israel should not be
able to have "Jewish" parties.

I don't think anyone said Israel's laws are a carbon copy of those of the
US, if you inferred that from the word "democracy" then your
inferral was incorrect.

>> >
>> >I'm not against aid to Israel with the above statement.  I'd
just like to
>> >see the ACLU stop opposing a few million of government dollars to
>religious
>> >schools and faith based social service organizations, or for
them to show
>> >appropriately more concern about the 11 Billion dollars that goes each
>year
>> >to a religious, faith based organization, known as the state of Israel.
>I'd
>> >like to see the ACLU promote tolerance by minorities for the beliefs of
>the
>> >majority just as hard as they promote tolerance by the majority for the
>> >beliefs of minorities.
>>
>> Personally I can't stand the ACLU.  Once upon a time they had principles
>> which I could respect even if I strongly disliked the results, but no
>> more.   Now they just predictably come down on the side of anything that
>> will promote degradation and chaos.
>
>Well we agree about the ACLU.  Many christians see it as a deliberately
>anti-christian organization, as well as decidedly anti-USA in many ways.  It
>is also generally perceived in this country as a "jewish"
organization, and
>that combined with the perception that it is decidedly anti-christian isn't
>a good thing for the long-term.  In the christian community its often
>referred to as the Anti-Christian Liberties Union.
>
I really hate the fact that many of the most visible members of the ACLU
have identifiably Jewish names.

A slight tangent:  the Republican Jewish Coalition had a full-page ad in
this week's Los Angeles Jewish Journal, with the tag line "The Union
for Reform Judaism does not speak for us."

>>
>> By the way, I agree that faith-based organizations should be eligible
>> for government dollars at least for non-religious activities, for
>> example providing special facilities for disabled children in religious
>> schools, supporting programs that feed and shelter the homeless, etc.
>>
>
>As is common you and I agree on more than we disagree.

We do agree on a lot of things, which is nice.   :)
>
>Gary
>

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