...

 I went back through the thread, and read all of the re-examining
 torture thread up to the point where I posted my comment. My
 comment was only on the subject that some Japanese waterboarding
 was described, specifically mentioning Chase Neilsen, as
 identical to that used by American interrogators in Afghanistan.

 Further, I downloaded the Bybee Memo, which was the legal basis
 for waterboarding Zubaydah, and the description of waterboarding
 in that does *NOT* involve plastic wrap, but a cloth over the
 eyes, then pulled down over the mouth during the waterboarding.

 Further, contrary to your pretension, the waterboarding is not
 just done with a canteen cup, but can be done with a watering
 can.

 And it can last up to 20 minutes, in 20 to 40 second intervals,
 with a few seconds between them. So, in a 6 second waterboarding
 the size of the container won't make much difference.

 Anyone with a basic knowledge of physics knows the impact of the
 water does not depend on the container or the quantity, but the
 height from which it is poured.

 So, every thing I said was true, and you are the one making it
 up.

 ...

~>>  EC> "Nielsen and his fellow prisoners, who were taken to Tokyo,
~>>  EC> were beaten and tortured while being interrogated. Among
~>>  EC> other things, Nielsen said in interviews, bamboo splints
~>>  EC> were shoved under his fingernails and then lighted on fire,
~>>  EC> and the bottoms of his feet were burned with hot coals."
~>>  EC> Yep, that would clearly be torture.  You left that part out.

~>>  Since the question was not what are all the ways Japanese
~>>  tortured US POWs

 EC> There was no "question."

 Yes, there was, but it might have been a bit too subtle for you.

 EC> There was your false claim  that
 EC> the four Japanese officers who were convicted of war crimes
 EC> were guilty of pouring some cups of water over some plastic
 EC> wrap that was placed in such a way that Nielsen couldn't
 EC> ingest any of it,.

 Well, wrong on every point. First because I did not give a
 number of Japanese convicted, nor did I restrict it to officers.

 Second, there was no plastic wrap mentioned, nor have I ever
 seen plastic wrap mentioned in any discussion of waterboarding.

 How much plastic wrap did the Japanese have available anyway?

 The only point I addressed was that the method of waterboarding
 they used, as described, is, for all intents and purposes,
 identical to that used by American interrogators in Afghanistan,
 and possibly Iraq and Gitmo. Nothing more.

 EC> In reality they were convicted of

 Irrelevant.

 EC>  I doubt that there is
 EC> anyone in this echo so abominably stupid that they would
 EC> believe that the four were convicted of pouring cups of
 EC> water over plastic wrap, although some are so blindly
 EC> partisan that they will overlook the absurdity of your
 EC> claim.

 Since I did not make any such claim, I wonder if there is anyone
 abominably stupid enough to buy into your diversionary tactics.

~>>  but did the Japanese waterboard in the manner
~>>  the US did in Iraq,

 EC> Another absurd claim that is completely unsupported.
 EC> Anyone who has even casually followed the threads on this
 EC> knows the differences.

 The difference between the two methods of waterboarding? For all
 practical purposes none. Oh, and I found you allowed for three
 methods of water cure, but one did not involve anything like
 waterboarding.

~>>  It was irrelevant.

 EC> The fact that he was tortured, and the descriptions of the
 EC> torture, are relevant for showing your post to be nonsense.

 Since I never said he was not tortured, your point is an obvious
 strawman.

~>> ->>  You are
~>> ->>  assuming there were only those two methods of the
"water cure".

~>>  EC> You take one shot, it misfires, and then you have nothing
~>>  EC> more to add to the thread.  You could have stopped there,
~>>  EC> but you just had to go on to make something up out of thin
~>>  EC> air and then falsely attribute it to me. Nothing new.

~>>  Actually, what I said was in direct response to something you
~>>  said

 EC> It was not in "response" to anything.  You made up an
 EC> absurd claim, and then you falsely attributed it to me.  I
 EC> pointed that out to you, and you had an amazingly stupid
 EC> response.

 I went back and read the entire thread of Re-examining Torture.
 And I found not one thing you have said in response to my
 comments is true. You did focus on two forms of waterboarding,
 and the method used on Chase Neilsen was another method and
 identical to the description of that used by the American
 interrogatore. Note, I do not say CIA, because I do not know how
 many of them were CIA and how many were contractors.

 As I mentioned in the point about the Bybee memo, he talked
 about waterboarding Zubaydah. I have read and downloaded the
 senate testimony of the FBI agent who was interrogating Zubaydah
 before the torture started. He stated that it was a contractor
 who brought in the torture.

~>>  EC> Actually Moe, Larry and Curly have been acting as if there
~>>  EC> is only ONE type of water-related interrogation method, and
~>>  EC> they lump everything (Philippines, WW II, Spanish
~>>  EC> Inquisition, and so on) together under the generic heading
~>>  EC> "waterboarding" as if they were all the same
thing.  In the
~>>  EC> course of the thread I have discussed at least a half-dozen
~>>  EC> very different water-related interrogation methods.  Your

~>>  I didn't read the entire thread.

 EC> EXACTLY!!!  That is no defense against the obvious
 EC> dishonesty of you making up such a claim, but it does

 Since my statement was absolutely correct, your comment above is
 absolute bull shit.

 EC> explain why you thought you might get away with it.  You
 EC> made it up and thought MAYBE it was true, because you
 EC> hadn't read the thread and were ignorant of the fact that
 EC> it was untrue.  Now you kn0ow, and your position seems to
 EC> be unchanged, though, so that just compounds your offense.

 You are following your usual line of attacking and accusing and
 claiming others are making things up when it is you who are
 making things up.

 I went back through the thread, and read all of the re-examining
 torture thread up to the point where I posted my comment. My
 comment was only on the subject that some Japanese waterboarding
 was described, specifically mentioning Chase Neilsen, as
 identical to that used by American interrogators in Afghanistan.

 Further, I downloaded the Bybee Memo, which was the legal basis
 for waterboarding Zubaydah, and the description of waterboarding
 in that does *NOT* involve plastic wrap, but a cloth over the
 eyes, then pulled down over the mouth during the waterboarding.

 Further, contrary to your pretension, the waterboarding is not
 just done with a canteen cup, but can be done with a watering
 can.

 Anyone with a basic knowledge of physics knows the impact of the
 water does not depend on the container or the quantity, but the
 height from which it is poured.

 So, every thing I said was true, and you are the one making it
 up.





BOB KLAHN bob.klahn{at}sev.org   http://home.toltbbs.com/bobklahn

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