From: "Gary Britt" 

That's not the negative side of capitalism.  That's the negative side of
high tax rates and a government that wastes its money on socialism while
cutting the level of basic services.

Gary

"Rich Gauszka"  wrote in message
news:43bc3dd6{at}w3.nls.net...
> All I'm stating is that it exists.
>
> Even your basic police/fire/ems protection is also being altered as many
> local communities due to 'balanced budget' restrictions ( at least in
> Michigan ) are being forced to rid themselves of their local services and
> being forced to settle for less costly ( and sometimes inferior ) county
and
> state protection. Although that's probably more an example of the negative
> side of capitalism
>
>
>
> "Gary Britt"  wrote in message
> news:43bc3a1c{at}w3.nls.net...
> >I didn't say I agreed with all the socialized healthcare you cite.
> > Healthcare would be in a LOT better situation today if we hadn't screwed
> > up
> > so badly about 50 years ago when we began to adopt a private insurance
> > "third party payer" model that separated the consumer
of the healthcare
> > services from price effects and choices.  The insurance model did NOT
have
> > to be based upon third party payer and could have been based solely in a
> > reimbursement kind of situation, but at the time we didn't realize how
> > drastically and critically removing the consumer of healthcare from
price
> > decisions and effects through third party payer insurance systems would
> > cause healthcare costs to skyrocket.
> >
> > I'm not in favor of free ambulance rides for anything except true
> > emergency
> > service, such as heart attacks, accidents, strokes, that kind of thing.
> > Again that are certain levels of services that must be achieved BEFORE
you
> > can rationally state you have ANY GOVERNMENT at all.
> >
> > I believe the minimum needed to achieve the existence of government are
> > common defense, police, fire, and EMERGENCY care.
> >
> > Everything else beyond that is elective and begins your sliding scale
> > (perhaps), but there is no government of any form before you achieve
these
> > basics.
> >
> > Gary
> >
> > "Rich Gauszka"  wrote in message
> > news:43bc3726{at}w3.nls.net...
> >> So where does your desire for a free ambulance ride filter into this
> >> equation?
> >>
> >> It's what an electorate wishes to choose as required services that will
> > vary
> >> the degree of socialism. Everyone wished that the government protect
them
> >> for foreign threats. Hence we accept a standing army.
> >>
> >> There is the socialized part of the health care sector  which includes
> >> Medicare, Medicaid, the Indian Health Service, Department of Veteran
> >> Affairs, the Public Health Service, programs such as KidCare, and the
> >> bulk
> >> of medical research. Some estimates place the percentage of socialized
> >> health care here between 60-70 percent.
> >>
> >> you've been socialized. It's ok to come out of the closet and show your
> > ssn
> >> 
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> "Gary Britt" 
wrote in message
> >> news:43bc323a$1{at}w3.nls.net...
> >> > Yes I understand what you are saying, but what I'm saying is
> >> > "emergency"
> >> > services ARE the province of any government and that
these very basic
> >> > services and purposes are NOT about line drawing.  They
are about the
> >> > definition of government.  A government that does NOT provide
national
> >> > defense, fire, police, and true emergency accident
services is NOT a
> >> > government at all.  If the government did not provide national
defense
> > and
> >> > define its borders, how would you tell there was a
country there at
> >> > all?
> >> > If
> >> > the government doesn't provide national defense, police, and fire
then
> >> > what
> >> > the hell would the government be providing, what purpose would it
serve
> > at
> >> > all??
> >> >
> >> > You are confusing the point at which government arises (i.e.,
national
> >> > defense, police, fire, and emergency services) with
drawing a line on
> >> > providing additional ELECTIVE services beyond those necessary to
> >> > achieve
> >> > government's existence.
> >> >
> >> > Its not line drawing or a sliding scale to socialism.  Its the
> > difference
> >> > between having a government and NOT having any
government.  Hence my
> >> > comment
> >> > about pure libertarianism/anarchy.
> >> >
> >> > Gary
> >> > "Rich Gauszka" 
wrote in message
> >> > news:43bc01be$1{at}w3.nls.net...
> >> >> Really? They are all degrees of society providing a
service. Health
> > care
> >> >> would just be another add on. It all depends on how
many add-ons one
> >> >> is
> >> >> willing to accept
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> "Gary Britt"
 wrote in message
> >> >> news:43bbff5d$1{at}w3.nls.net...
> >> >> > Basic services such as national defense, fire,
police, ambulance
> > don't
> >> >> > have
> >> >> > anything to do with socialism versus
capitalism.  Those services
> > aren't
> >> >> > something that requires socialism for a society
to provide.  I
think
> >> >> > you
> >> >> > are
> >> >> > confusing pure libertarianism/anarchy with
capitalism in making
this
> >> >> > distinction.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Gary
> >> >> >
> >> >> > "Rich Gauszka"
 wrote in message
> >> >> > news:43bbfa98{at}w3.nls.net...
> >> >> >> The point most of us are trying to make was
that degrees of
> > socialism
> >> >> > aren't
> >> >> >> necessarily undesirable for a society. It
all depends on
perceived
> >> > value
> >> >> > for
> >> >> >> those services.  Some draw the line further
up the level than you
> >> >> >> do
> >> > but
> >> >> >> most ( even those arguing that socialism is
evil incarnate )
> >> >> >> readily
> >> >> > accept
> >> >> >> and desire some of it's benefits.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> The trick for any society has always been
where to draw the line
> >> > between
> >> >> >> capitalism and socialism
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> "Mark" 
wrote in message
> >> > news:43bbf256{at}w3.nls.net...
> >> >> >> > Listen guys, I'm fully cognizant that
my position has
> > contradictory
> >> >> >> > elements to it, I suppose I could
spend a lot of time
elaborating
> >> >> >> > and
> >> >> >> > refining various aspects, but I'm not
going to do it. I simply
> > feel
> >> >> >> > that
> >> >> >> > fire, police and rescue are the most
basic of protective
services
> > to
> >> >> >> > citizens and should not be billed out
in a piecemeal fashion as
> > they
> >> >> >> > are
> >> >> >> > provided to people in trouble.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > Illogical or not, that's my story and
I'm sticking to it 
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
>

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