BA>>> Replying to a message of Earl Croasmun to Bob Ackley:

 EC>>>> Since the Emancipation Proclamation was issued as an executive
 EC>>>> order, I would still feel that they have been around for a while.

 BA>>> That proclamation was only in effect for those areas not
 BA>>> under the control of the US government.  It did not affect
 BA>>> slaves in Maryland, for instance.  It was also
 BA>>> unConstitutional - as was Mr. Lincoln's war.

 BK>>  Was it? Where is it forbidden?

 BA> There is *nothing* in the Constitution that requires *any*
 BA> state to remain in the union.  The act of forcing any state
 BA> to remain in the union has no support in the Constitution.
 BA> This country has not had a federal government since 1865,
 BA> it has had a *national* government - and there's a whale of
 BA> a difference between the two.

 You ever think about this? There is no constitutional standard
 for what is a basis for war. All it takes is a congressional
 declaration.

 And once the South left the union the Union had the
 constitutional right to declare war for any reason they chose.
 But to do that they would have to recognize that the South had
 effectively left the union.

 So, the war was not unconstitutional, if it was declared. And if
 the south was merely in rebellion, and war was not declared,
 then it was not unconstitutional, as it was suppression of
 rebellion, not war.

 Since the constitution does provide for the suppression of
 insurrection, then if the South was held to be in insurrection,
 then the suppression was constitutional. The 14th amendment
 makes clear that the secession was considered an insurrection.

 BK>>  Arguing whether it's constitutional is often a way of avoiding
 BK>>  the question of was it the right thing to do.

 BA> Killing over 300,000 American citizens is the right thing
 BA> to do?  And you're all wound up over the deaths of 4,000
 BA> American troops caused by the actions of Bush minor's
 BA> administration?

 Freeing how many millions of slaves does seem to tilt the
 calculus. Aside from the fact that neither side expected it to
 go that far or that long.

 And yes, I am 'wound up' over the deaths of 4000 Americans, in a
 war of choice, with little to recommend it.

 BA>>> Being shot in the head was the best thing that could have
 BA>>> happened to the man. It placed every single action he ever
 BA>>> took beyond any criticism of any sort. It
 BA>>> also prevented him from having to fight with the rabidly
 BA>>> right wing congress, that
 BA>>> was left to Andrew Johnson.

 BK>>  And brought a quick end to with malice toward none.

 BA> Lincoln would have had just as much trouble with Stanton,
 BA> Stevens, et. al. as Johnson did.  It might not have gone as
 BA> far as impeachment, but there would have been a lot of
 BA> trouble.

 Yes, there well might have been.

 BA> All Lincoln accomplished was to change slavery from a
 BA> purely local and matter to a national matter.  *Everybody*
 BA> in this country is now enslaved by our masters in
 BA> Washington DC.

 Not even close to the same thing. If you don't understand
 that... well... that explains a lot.


BOB KLAHN bob.klahn{at}sev.org   http://home.toltbbs.com/bobklahn

... Only Creationists didn't evolve.
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