From: Bible Bob 

On Mon, 26 Mar 2007 13:26:40 -0500, duke  wrote:

>On Mon, 26 Mar 2007 09:34:46 -0500, Bible Bob  wrote:
>
>>>Only if baptized or confirmed.
>
>>A "Christian" by definition is a disciple of Christ, a
child of God,
>>with the spirit of God in him or her.
>
>A disciple by definition is a student.  The bible relates 2 circumstances re
the
>descent of the Holy Spirit - in baptism (see Jesus in the Jordan) and at
>Pentecost, another baptism acknowledgment in Acts 2:38.

Acts 11:26 KJV
And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to
pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and
taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in
Antioch.

Disciples were called Christians; not the unlearned babes in Christ. In
Acts 2:38 the converts were not disciples because they just got saved.  It
takes time to become a disciple

A disciple is a student of his instructor.

Matthew 10:24 KJV
The disciple is not above [his] master, nor the servant above his lord.

He must also be as his instructor.

Matthew 10:25 KJV
It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as
his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much
more [shall they call] them of his household?

He must be discipled and dedicated to the Lord.

Luke 14:26 KJV
If any [man] come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and
children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot
be my disciple.

Luke 14:27 KJV
And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

Luke 14:33 KJV
So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he
cannot be my disciple.

By the way, I would be remiss if I did not point out that the figure of
speech employed in Luke 14:26 is called Hyperbole a form of Amplification
which is the adding to the sense so much that it exaggerates it, and
enlarges or diminishes it more than is really meant in fact.  Jesus meant
that those who would esteem their parents more than He could not be
disciples.  A disciples loyalty is to Christ.

But the real way to know a disciple is to watch for the love the disciple
another disciple.

John 13:35 KJV
By this shall all [men] know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one
to another.

So, a disciple may be a student but more accurately he is a loving
disciplined  follower of the teacher and the teachings of the teacher. He
is not a novice; not a babe in Christ.
>
>>  All Christians do have spirit
>>that is holy.  Spirit is the confirmation.  All Christians have been
>>baptized in spirit.  If you are referring to "church
goers" or people
>>who "believe in God" who are not saved, then that would be another
>>matter.  But he spoke of "Christians".
>
>As far as saved in concerned, let's leave that decision to God.   Now if your
>"saved" is a mere acknowledgement of those that accept Christ
as savior, then
I
>agree.  They are truly saved, however, when they are buried with Christ to sin
>in the hope of rising with him to eternal love of the Father, called Baptism.
>

According to Peter in Acts 2 and Paul in Romans 10:9, a person is saved
when he changes lords from self to Jesus (repents) and believes in his
heart that God raised Jesus from the dead.  That's what Peter taught in
Acts 2 that pricked the hearts and motivated the people to ask him what
they must do to be saved.

Indeed God knows who the saved are and it not our job to decide who is or
is not saved; except for ourselves of course.  To know we are saved we have
to know whether we have met the criteria.  We must also know the criteria
to perform as ambassadors for Christ to reconcile men to God.

There are too many salvation plans in play today that are not Biblical. 
For example, "Accept Jesus as your personal Saviour."  The Bible
does not say that, people say that.  There is no confession of Jesus as
Lord or belief that God raised Jesus from the dead in "I accept Jesus
as my personal savior."

>>>Only if one wants to go to heaven.
>>People don't go to heaven.  New Jerusalem (paradise) will be on the
>>earth.
>
>Will be a pretty crowded place.

You know, I have wondered about that myself.  But it will be a new heaven
and a new earth wherein dwelleth righteousness able to allow space for all
those who have ever lived and gained entrance into paradise.  I figure God
would know how to make it big enough to hold everyone.  It is, after all,
His primary goal - to have a great big family to love and be loved by.
>
>>>>"By the same charity that it enkindles in us, the
Eucharist preserves us
>>>>from future mortal sins." (Pg. 390, #1395)
>>>>But the Bible does not teach this. Can you explain? The Bible teaches
>>>>that Jesus cleanses the believer from their sins.
>>>And the Eucharist is the Body of Christ.
>
>>Eucharist is from a Greek word that means thanksgiving.  The body of
>>Christ ascended to the right hand of he throne of God and is not on
>>the earth.  That body had no blood in it becaue it had all been shed
>>which is why Jesus spoke of his resurrected body as flesh and bones.
>>The body of Christ on the earth is made up of people who are children
>>of God.
>
>In Baptism.
>
>>  Bread and wine are are representations of the body and blood
>>of Christ; not the body of Christ.
>
>Sorry, but Jesus said other wise at the last supper.

Which of the three last suppers are you referring to?  You do realize that
there were three that people confuse as one (others two), don't you?

The first at Lazarus house in Bethany:

John 12:1-10 KJV
1  Then Jesus six days before the passover came to Bethany, where Lazarus
was which had been dead, whom he raised from the dead. 2  There they made
him a supper; and Martha served: but Lazarus was one of them that sat at
the table with him. 3  Then took Mary a pound of ointment of spikenard,
very costly, and anointed the feet of Jesus, and wiped his feet with her
hair: and the house was filled with the odour of the ointment. 4  Then
saith one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, Simon's [son], which should
betray him,
5  Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor?
6  This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a
thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein. 7  Then said Jesus,
Let her alone: against the day of my burying hath she kept this.
8  For the poor always ye have with you; but me ye have not always. 9  Much
people of the Jews therefore knew that he was there: and they came not for
Jesus' sake only, but that they might see Lazarus also, whom he had raised
from the dead.
10  But the chief priests consulted that they might put Lazarus also to death;

The second took place two days before the passover at the house of Simeon
the leper. also in Bethany.

Matthew 26:6-13 KJV
6  Now when Jesus was in Bethany, in the house of Simon the leper, 7  There
came unto him a woman having an alabaster box of very precious ointment,
and poured it on his head, as he sat [at meat]. 8  But when his disciples
saw [it], they had indignation, saying, To what purpose [is] this waste?
9  For this ointment might have been sold for much, and given to the poor.
10  When Jesus understood [it], he said unto them, Why trouble ye the
woman? for she hath wrought a good work upon me. 11  For ye have the poor
always with you; but me ye have not always. 12  For in that she hath poured
this ointment on my body, she did [it] for my burial.
13  Verily I say unto you, Wheresoever this gospel shall be preached in the
whole world, [there] shall also this, that this woman hath done, be told
for a memorial of her.

The last supper is the one recorded in

John 13:1-20 KJV
1  Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was
come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved
his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end.
2  And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas
Iscariot, Simon's [son], to betray him; 3  Jesus knowing that the Father
had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and
went to God; 4  He riseth from supper, and laid aside his garments; and
took a towel, and girded himself.
5  After that he poureth water into a bason, and began to wash the
disciples' feet, and to wipe [them] with the towel wherewith he was girded.
6  Then cometh he to Simon Peter: and Peter saith unto him, Lord, dost thou
wash my feet?
7  Jesus answered and said unto him, What I do thou knowest not now; but
thou shalt know hereafter.
8  Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him,
If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me. 9  Simon Peter saith unto
him, Lord, not my feet only, but also [my] hands and [my] head.
10  Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash [his]
feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all. 11  For he
knew who should betray him; therefore said he, Ye are not all clean.
12  So after he had washed their feet, and had taken his garments, and was
set down again, he said unto them, Know ye what I have done to you?
13  Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for [so] I am. 14  If I
then, [your] Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash
one another's feet.
15  For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.
16  Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his
lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him. 17  If ye know
these things, happy are ye if ye do them. 18  I speak not of you all: I
know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that
eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.
19  Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may
believe that I am [he].
20  Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send
receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

Mark 14:17-18 KJV
17  And in the evening he cometh with the twelve. 18  And as they sat and
did eat, Jesus said, Verily I say unto you, One of you which eateth with me
shall betray me.



Luke 22:17-20 KJV
17  And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide
[it] among yourselves:
18  For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until
the kingdom of God shall come. 19  And he took bread, and gave thanks, and
brake [it], and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for
you: this do in remembrance of me.
20  Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup [is] the new
testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

He divided the cup and the bread with his disciples; not the general
populace of Israel

Jesus Christ through Paul said -

1 Corinthians 10:14-21 KJV
14  Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry. 15  I speak as to
wise men; judge ye what I say. 16  The cup of blessing which we bless, is
it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is
it not the communion of the body of Christ?
17  For we [being] many are one bread, [and] one body: for we are all
partakers of that one bread.
18  Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices
partakers of the altar?
19  What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered
in sacrifice to idols is any thing? 20  But I [say], that the things which
the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I
would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.
21  Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot
be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.

1 Corinthians 11:22-30 KJV
22  What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the
church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall
I praise you in this? I praise [you] not. 23  For I have received of the
Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the [same]
night in which he was betrayed took bread:
24  And when he had given thanks, he brake [it], and said, Take, eat: this
is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
25  After the same manner also [he took] the cup, when he had supped,
saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye
drink [it], in remembrance of me. 26  For as often as ye eat this bread,
and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.
27  Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink [this] cup of the
Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
28  But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of [that] bread, and
drink of [that] cup.
29  For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh
damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. 30  For this cause
many [are] weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

It's definately an interesting subject; especially for those who
"eateth and drinketh unworthily" and for those who are "weak
and sickly among you;" to late for those asleep though.
>
>You protest_ants have an extraordinarily shallow view of Christ.

I am not a Protestant or a Catholic; just a Christian.  A Christian can be
neither Protestant or Catholic because his loyalty must be to Christ first.
>
>>>The bible teaches that one must be perfect(ed) to stand before God.
>>>Other than that, you're confusing physically dead vs spiritually dead.
>
>>The final judgement is in for all children of God.
>
>That's because the mortal sinners have all departed to satan at the initial
>judgment.

What?  That's a new one?  I don't understand.
>
>>>>3. Baptism
>>>>The Catechism reads
>>>>"The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary
for salvation." (Pg.
>>>>352, #1257)
>
>>>>"The Church does not know of any other means other
than Baptism that
>>>>assures entry into eternal beatitude..." (Pg. 352, #1257)
>>>>
>>>>"The faithful are born anew by Baptism.."(Pg. 341, #1212).
>>>
>>>John 3:5-6.
>
>>John 3:5 and 6 speak of a future time from the day John 3 was spoken
>>when people could and would be born again.
>
>Ah, you protest_ers, always looking for a wordsy way out.  But God isn't
amused.

I'm not a Protestant and do not need to look for a way out because I am
"in" and staying "in" the one body of Christ which is
made up those who believe regardless of their denominational affiliation.
>
>duke, American-American
>*****
>"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
>Pope Paul VI
>*****


.....
BB
http://www.biblebob.net

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