-=> Quoting Paul Andinach to Fred Austin <=-
 -=> Quoting Fred Austin to Paul Andinach <=-
 
 PA> UFOs, since Sagan is one of the people one can trust on the subject,
 
 FA> Trust,  what  key  word  is  this.   As in  credible?. After  much
 FA> listening to the skeptical viewpoint, I am under  the assumption  that
 FA> there is no one on the planet with  any credibility,according  to most
 FA> of the  skeptical viewpoints.
 PA> Very well put. There is no one person who, by themselves, is
 PA> credible. 
    Ok, very well, you suggest now there should be a  group of  people 
etc.. 
 FA> So why  does Mr.   Sagan's credibility
 FA> stand.  Could it be because it is a negative viewpoint?
 PA> It could be, but it isn't.
    Wait now, I do believe Mr. Sagan was not pro  towards the  idea of 
the Earth being visited by ET.  He was  pro towards  the idea  of life 
existing elsewhere in the universe, but I believe he stood  behind the 
idea that the distances involved etc,  were to  great to  be overcome, 
therefore the probabilities were very low  etc..
    Since I am not that familiar with all Mr.  Sagan's  viewpoints, if 
anyone would like to clarify it, jump right in.....
 FA> I  find  it  amusing  that dozens  of highly  educated people  are
 FA> dismissed as foolish, and  warped, fantasy  prone, missing  the facts,
 FA> yet one man, is God. One man cannot be in error.
 PA> Indeed, that's a very amusing idea. Where did you get it from?
    Basically your  viewpoint concerning  who is  credible and  who is 
not, the top line is from you on Sagan. 
 PA> If it was just one man, I would not be that believing.
 PA> But Sagan is trained in clear thinking, he has expertise in
 PA> relevant areas of knowledge - and, most importantly, *he is backed up
 PA> by science*.
    
    Now Paul, you are raising an  interesting point.   Most scientists 
meet your criteria.  They all are backed up by science  if you  prefer 
to use that phrase.  But clarify something, *backed  up*, do  you mean 
the support or general opinion of their colleagues or peers etc.. Or do 
you mean scientific methods.
    Hynek  was  a  scientist.   There are  many involved  privately in 
research and through various  organizations.  What  is the  difference 
between their methods and Sagan's.  Are we going  towards the  all men 
are equal, but some are a little more equal theory?
     Sagan's statements are based on evidence that can be
 PA> followed, tested, and reproduced. 
 PA> As opposed to, say, somebody who believes that they met an alien.
 PA> Where is the evidence? How can I know that he's telling the truth?
    Meeting an alien is an extreme point,which I will try and address.  
But first people pass lie detectors Paul.  Their  are radar  tracks of 
objects etc..  There has been reviews of cases by scientists and there 
may not be a lot, but  there are  some unexplained.   I think  you are 
dismayed at the extremes of Ufology.  I concur.  I prefer  to look  at 
data  that  has  some  support  from  let's  say  radar etc,  has some 
credibility  to  it.   Some  pattern, multiple  witnesses, meets  some 
criteria.  There are cases.
    The biggest problem as  I have  said before  in most  incidents is 
people. The number of hoaxes of course has made it difficult to  trust 
anyone. We are our worst enemy.  So when I watched  this woman  on TV, 
on the 6 o'clock news up here in Montreal, come out and say, in 1991 I 
was abducted, I have to admit it sound's crazy.  I  have never  seen a 
story like that on our local news.
    And  watching  her interview,  there was  nothing blatant, 
that says she is any different than your next door neighbor.  So  what 
is her motivation,you have got me.  Since now its on  my territory  so 
to speak, I am having a hard time picturing someone being taken out of
Laval, which is a suburb, middle  class, well  populated etc..  I know 
the area.  What are we dealing with here.  Honestly I am uncertain.
All I can say is,if sometime absolute proof should come  out, that  at 
least yes, there are objects flying  the skies,well  then the  rest of 
these claims will no longer sound impossible or ludicrous. 
 Internet: Fred.Austin@juxta.mn.pubnix.net  
           Fred.Austin@sphinx.hughestech.com 
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