On 20 Mar 2005 16:24:05 -0800, "bluesmama" 
wrote:

>
>Grizzlie Antagonist wrote:
>> On 16 Mar 2005 09:31:31 -0800, "bluesmama"

>> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >Grizzlie Antagonist wrote:
>> >> On 15 Mar 2005 13:30:37 -0800, "bluesmama"
>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >Grizzlie Antagonist wrote:
>> >> >> On 15 Mar 2005 12:57:27 -0800, "bluesmama"
>> >
>> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >Grizzlie Antagonist wrote:
>> >> >> >> On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 11:00:15 -0500, howldog
>> >> >
>> >> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >the point is, these superhero chick
shows are about as
>> >realistic
>> >> >and
>> >> >> >> >empowering as The PowerPuff Girls.
Its amazing to me that
>any
>> >> >woman
>> >> >> >> >could get any
"empowering" out of them. You could say the
>same
>> >> >thing
>> >> >> >> >about a guy who watches James Bond
and gets any empowerment
>> >outta
>> >> >> >that
>> >> >> >> >as well, I guess.
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Men are not allowed to receive
empowerment from anything.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >Do you truly believe this, or are you exaggerating?
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> What kind of question is that?
>> >> >
>> >> >It's quite a serious question. Which you didn't exactly answer.
>Do
>> >you
>> >> >truly believe that men are not allowed to receive empowerment
>from
>> >> >anything?
>> >> >
>> >> >> Name one thing that men are allowed to receive empowerment
>from.
>> >> >>
>> >> >Well obviously I'm not a man, so I can't know firsthand what
>things
>> >men
>> >> >draw empowerment from, I can only make assumptions and God help
>me
>> >if I
>> >> >make assumptions here because someone is going to trot out the
>tired
>> >> >old ASS-U-ME thing, but anyway, assume I will.
>> >> >
>> >> >I'm assuming men get feelings of empowerment from
similar things
>> >that
>> >> >women get them from; situations where they feel competent,
>desired,
>> >> >respected, and so on. Being good parents, being good providers,
>> >being
>> >> >good at whatever it is they choose to do.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> This is fucking bullshit, and it's just the sort of fucking
>bullshit
>> >> that I would expect from a pampered princess living in a
>matriarchal
>> >> society who takes her privileged status for granted...
>> >
>> >Well don't get your panties in a twist, I'm just asking for
>> >clarification. Do you get this upset when a man asks you a question,
>or
>> >is your ire just reserved for women and feminists or pampered
>> >princesses?
>>
>>
>>
>> I have a lower boiling point for women and feminists and pampered
>> princesses.
>>
>
>Apparently toddlers raise your ire as well. 



Right.  So you see, you piss me off for a variety of reasons, and you
just named one more.


>So who doesn't piss you
>off?



Fellow misogynists, of course.  Or at least men - regardless of how
they define themselves - who don't take shit from women.




>> >> ...to say nothing of the fact that you COMPLETELY blew over the
>> >> qualifier that I set forth at the end of the post (where
I said "I
>> >> don't mean, as individual human beings.  I mean, AS MEN.")
>> >
>> >I didn't blow over it at all, I asked you to TELL me something, and
>> >freely admitted that, as a woman, I can only guess at what men draw
>> >empowerment from. So I gave some examples, and if they aren't the
>> >things that make you feel warm and fuzzy inside, or whatever the
>male
>> >equivalent is, I was hoping you might give me some details about
>what
>> >does make you feel empowered as a MAN.
>>
>>
>> Reading police reports about men beating up women.  "You go,
guy," I
>> say.  It's great to be reminded of how a male-female fight usually
>> ends up IN REAL LIFE.
>>
>If you're serious, I'm sorry for you. If you're being flippant, I'd
>rather you told me something less inflammatory and more illuminating.


I'm serious, and if you think about it, what I said was VERY
ILLUMINATING.

And where's your moral censure of women who get pleasure from scenes
in which women beat up men?

Oh, of course, it's not there.



>> >And by the way, no one can allow you to be empowered, it's something
>> >you do for yourself. I imagine there are sources out there from
>which
>> >both men and women can draw empowerment, whether it's considered
>> >politically correct to do so or not.
>>
>>
>>
>> Hah.  I just gave you an example of such a source.
>>
>And such a lovely source it was. But we're talking about empowerment,
>not revenge fantasies.


No, no, no, no, no.

If women get empowerment from fictitious dramatizations in which women
beat up men (and they say they do), why shouldn't I get empowerment
from REAL LIFE incidents in which men beat up women?


>> >> We were talking about the fact that women receive empowerment from
>> >the
>> >> exaltation of women and the humiliation of men.  The examples
>being
>> >> used in this thread were those scenes from movies and TV where
>> >> ass-kicking chicks use martial arts to subdue armies of men with
>> >their
>> >> bare hands and feet.
>> >
>> >Some women might draw empowerment from those images; 



Where's your moral censure of those women?



>I personally do
>> >not.


Bullshit!  Of course you do!  Otherwise, where's your moral censure of
women who do?


>> Bullshit!  Women paid good money to watch Jennifer Lopez throttle a
>> man to death.
>>
>Many women did. My husband and I watched the movie at home and laughed
>through most of it, what with the pathetic acting, the telegraphed plot
>twists, and the unrealistic fight scene. Then we had a good discussion
>about men and women and violence. And how we'll never rent another
>Jennifer Lopez movie.


I don't believe you.  I think that you went back to the girls in the
office and had a good hate-male fest over how much enjoyment you got
from that movie.

And I think that you hate your husband.

You hate him for being bigger than you are; you hate him for being
stronger than you are; you hate him for being smarter than you are;
you hate him because he has brains and all that you have are two
useless jugs of milk (small ones at that); you hate him for being able
to write his name in the snow while you can't; you hate him for ALL
the reasons that women hate men.

And the only reason why you don't use a gun or knife to kill him in
his sleep in order to satiate your hatred of him and of men in general
is because YOU DON'T HAVE THE GUTS!

Of course, all that I'm saying is that you are a typical female.  You
hate men for of these reasons, and your hatred is sated by watching
all those male-bashing revenge-fantasy "woman beats up man" fantasy
flicks and then going back to discuss those things with the girls.




>> >> Howldog was making the point that women are allowed to receive
>> >> "empowerment" from scenes in popular mainstream
entertainment in
>> >which
>> >> women beat up men.  Can you think of an equivalent male-empowering
>> >> entertainment phenomenon that exalts men over women?
>> >
>> >Well first off I see empowerment as a positive thing, and the
>> >woman-kicking-man's-ass doesn't fit my definition of empowerment,
>>
>>
>>
>> I don't believe you.  How's that?
>>
>
>Neither original nor relevant, but anyway.
>
>>
>> > but
>> >that's just my opinion. If you are saying that there are no media
>> >examples of men kicking women around, I'd have to disagree - though
>> >lately, it's been more verbal denigration than physical violence,
>and
>> >frankly, verbal denigration is much worse, as bruises do heal.
>>
>>
>> As howldog explains, those images are designed to fill men with
>SHAME,
>> not with feelings of empowerment.  The men in those images are never
>> the good guys.
>
>
>> That you would allude to the two entirely different sets of images as
>> being somehow morally equivalent to one another is just more proof of
>> what a black evil heart rests underneath your facade of smug
>> well-meaningness.
>
>My black evil heart? How poetic you are.



How accurate I am.


>Here we go: yes, there are media images of women "besting" men and they
>are undoubtedly marketed as "empowering" for women. They don't empower
>me, and I don't think they're appropriate. I watch as little TV as I
>can, and - except for forays into bad taste like the Jennifer Lopez
>movie - I'm usually watching good movies, so I don't see those images
>as often as others might.



And here you are with the same evil intentions avoiding the issue.

You said that fictitious depictions of women beating men up weren't so
bad because there are also fictitious depictions of men beating up
women.

And I pointed out to you and others have pointed out to you that those
are always presented with the men as the BAD GUYS and weren't depicted
at all as being empowering for men.

And you couldn't respond so you ran away from the issue, like the
cowardly cunt you are.  And you're STILL running away from it.



>> >> And another example of popular renditions of female
"empowerment"
>are
>> >> any ceremony or news story which honors a female achiever as a
>WOMAN
>> >> or as a FEMALE achiever - whereas MALE achievers (far more
>numerous
>> >> and with achievements far more worthwhile) are honored only as
>> >> INDIVIDUALS and not as MEN or as MALE ACHIEVERS.
>> >
>> >Female achievement in sport is celebrated because it's been
>primarily a
>> >male venue.
>>
>>
>> You haven't answered the challenge at all, cunt!
>
>Poetic and graphic as well - how effectively you use the language.
>
>I wasn't aware a challenge had been made, but I was trying to explain
>that perhaps what you're talking about in relation to sports, gender
>and role models is a result of there not being as many female role
>models, and so there's more emphasis on them. There are many male role
>models for boys interested in sports.


No cunt; there are NO male role models for boys interested in sports;
that's what I just got through TELLING you because males who succeed
in sports are NEVER PORTRAYED AS ROLE MODELS FOR BOYS; they are NEVER
PORTRAYED AS MEN AT ALL; they are portrayed as INDIVIDUALS who are
role models FOR EVERYONE.

People like you do everything you can to make sure that men and boys
aren't allowed to have anything in the nature of male pride.


>> Why is female achievement in sports celebrated as a triumph for
>> females and male achievement in sport is celebrated only as a triumph
>> for the individuals involved?



No response, huh?  Lying, cowardly, man-hating cunt!


>> >> When some group of female Americans won some sort of soccer
>> >tournament
>> >> against all-female competition in 1999, that was supposed to be
>some
>> >> sort of triumph for American women and girls and some sort of
>> >disgrace
>> >> for American men (as though male athletes had never before won
>glory
>> >> for their country).
>> >>
>> >
>> >Don't follow soccer so I can't comment on that particular example
>> >except to wonder how women competing against women has anything to
>do
>> >with men.
>>
>>
>> Don't you throw that question back in my face, cunt.
>
>My husband has a variety of colorful expressions for a woman's vagina,
>perhaps he can email you some, just to add a little interest to your
>epithets.


The epithet that I'm using suits my purpose fine.

If your husband isn't putting you in your place, and it sounds as
though he isn't, then he's an accessory to your crimes, and he should
use those colorful expressions as a self-portrait.



>> You answer it, instead.   Why WAS the triumph of one women's team
>over
>> a number of other women's teams portrayed as proof of female
>> superiority?
>
>WHY was it portrayed that way? Ask the people who did the portraying. I
>can tell you what I think, but if you don't believe what I say, what's
>the point, really. But oh hell, I'll give it a go. Because the people
>who did the portraying were expressing an anti-male bias, and devaluing
>a valid achievement by using it as a blatant example of male-bashing,
>while claiming to be empowering women.



And where's your moral condemnation of that?


>> >> The ability of a team of American women to prevail over a number
>of
>> >> teams of foreign women was portrayed, in some mysterious
>> >unexplainable
>> >> and illogical fashion, as proof that females were superior to
>males.
>> >
>> >Sadly some people are still caught up in the "which sex
is superior"
>> >fight.
>>
>>
>> And I'm one of them.  And so are you.
>>
>> That's what you and I are fighting over right now.  The difference is
>> that I acknowledge it, and you don't.
>
>I'm not fighting, I'm discussing. You're the one throwing words like
>cunt and evil black heart around. There may very well be a battle
>raging between men and women, but I'm not interested in joining the
>fight.


Yes, you are.  You're engaging in one right now.

You're not "discussing" anything.  You're avoiding every
"bottom line"
question that I throw at you and you are only delivering moral censure
to those on the other side from you and NOT towards those on your own
side.

Do you think that you're being "cute"?  Cunt?



>> >> How come when John Elway comes back from adversity to win two
>Super
>> >> Bowls; how come when Lance Armstrong overcomes testicular cancer
>to
>> >> win the Tour de France, they are portrayed as INDIVIDUAL role
>models
>> >> and not MALE role models?
>> >
>> >Well I'm not the one doing the portraying,
>>
>>
>> Yes, you are.
>
>No, I'm the recipient of the portrayal. And if I need role models for
>overcoming adversity, I don't have to look as far afield as the NFL or
>the Tour de France to find them. I'll just look to the strong men and
>women in my family and my community.


There isn't any such thing as a strong woman, cunt because men can
beat up women.  Women are inferior to men.  They are dumber, smaller,
weaker and more emotion-centered. They have two jugs of milk that
substitute for brains and once a month, you go even crazier than you
are the rest of the month.

And you hate men for all this so you would never look to a man in your
family or community for anything.

And anyway, no one asked you who YOU looked to for a role model.  The
question that was put to you REPEATEDLY, which you continue to avoid
(and you probably think that you're being cute) is why female
achievers are portrayed as ROLE MODELS FOR GIRLS AND WOMEN while male
achievers are only portrayed as INDIVIDUALS and ROLE MODELS FOR
EVERYONE.  Why are males not celebrated for their unique qualities?


------------------------------------

grizzlieantagonist{at}yahoo.com

"Ladies and gentlemen - let's have a round of applause for tonight's
player of the game - FRAN-CIS-CO SAN-N-N-N-TOS!
    - Brian Anthony (P.A. announcer at Grizzlie Stadium), June 11, 2004


"Men are qualified for civil liberty in exact proportion to their
disposition to put moral chains upon their own appetites; in proportion as
their love of justice is above their rapacity; in proportion as their
soundness and sobriety of understanding is above their vanity and
presumption; in proportion as they are more disposed to listen to the
counsels of the wise and good, in preference to the flattery of knaves. 
Society cannot exist unless a controlling power upon will and appetite be
placed somewhere, and the less of it there is within, the more there must
be without.  It is ordained in the eternal constitution of things that men
of intemperate minds cannot be free.  Their passions forge their
fetters."
     
     - Edmund Burke, Letter to a Member of the National Assembly (1791)


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