-=> Quoting William Elliot to Clarence Hogan <=-
 >>> Clarence Hogan on Universes [1/2] 
 
 WE> Definitely wrong.  I refer you to Godel's Incompleteness theorem and
 WE> the work done by Turning and Post on recursiveness and effective
 WE> computability.  They have also showed that there are questions, which
 WE> if true, can be determined in finite time, but which if false will
 WE> take forever to determine. 
 
 CH> OK, but ya' dun either went way over my head or dropped so low that
 CH> I can't make heads or tails of it and I must report that I have never
 CH> read the people that you speak of here, however, as far as the
 CH> universe is concerned and the speculations of it's origin and other
 CH> speculations are no more than just that...speculations IMHO!
 WE> The above mathematicians weren't speculating, they were proving
 WE> theorems, theorems about statements that can be neither proven nor
 WE> disproved and sets of numbers impossible to compute. 
 Six of one and half a dozen of the other, right?
 CH> ifin we had the full knowledge of the origin and workings of the 
 CH> universe, do you truly think that we would be capable of creating one? 
 WE> Likely not.  'Tis but speculation that there is any complete
 WE> blueprint. 
 Hummmmm, who needs the blueprint, when they have the thing itself to
 go by, for if we were able to create a universe, could we not also be
 able to take our own exact measurement of the one we have to duplicate
 it by and not need the complete blueprints, measurements and all?
 CH> You could say that I suppose, however, it is MHO that the universe
 CH> is more akin to a robot and has no thinking abilities and can only
 CH> do what it has been programed to do, whatdaya' think!  How can you
 CH> even suggest such an assumption, much less assume it?  Please 
 CH> elaborate a little sum more!  :)
 WE> The universe contains people that, by assumption think.  Therefore it
 WE> has the thinking abilities of those people, most likely numerous
 WE> extraterrestrial thinkers about whom I can not elaborate.  If the
 WE> universe does have the thinking abilities as enumerated above, then
 WE> people and extraterrestrials are not part of the universe. 
 
 Why must you insist on throwing people into the equation of the
 universe?  What does people have to do with the workings of the
 universe, for if people were to succeed in destroying themselves
 this very moment, do you not think that the universe would still
 go on as it has for untold millions of years?  There are no 
 requirements in/of the universe that there has to be life as we
 know it within it, now is there?  In order to say what you have
 said, the universe would have to be in man, but the fact is that
 man is in the universe, right?
 CH> In my own logical horse sense way, I believe that I have a basic
 CH> grasp of the universe and given the distinct possibility that all
 CH> universes (if there are indeed others) are brothers of kin, then
 CH> they would/could also be understood, would you not think?  For even
 CH> if they were exact opposites of each other, would they not mirror
 CH> each other in most every respect?
 
 WE> You understand the mere mote of human existence.  You have no
 WE> experience with any other universes.  Your conjecture is unfounded. 
 Could possibly be, however, did they not say the same thing of the
 Wright brothers, A. G. Bell, and many others, so I guess I am in
 fairly good company!  :)
 CH> And just why not, did I not just speak of another universe which is
 CH> but a mirror image of this one, for even if there were billions of
 CH> other universes, would they not all be of the same kindred fashion
 CH> and all work on the same basic principles of the same immutable laws?
 
 WE> Speculation and conjecture all.  The best mirror image universe is one
 WE> just like ours but with anti-matter replacing all the matter and
 WE> matter replacing the small motes of anti-matter.  Hindu mythology
 WE> declares that the god Vishnu sleeping upon the ocean of existence
 WE> dreams of innumerable Brahmas each creating his own universe. 
 At this point in time of my humble understanding, I would have to 
 agree that matter could not exist with anti-matter, but then again
 that could also be another matter!  :)  Matter of fact, just what
 do we know that is truly a matter of fact, for could it not be that
 there is nothing of fact and that it is all but a dream?  Yes, I
 have in the past, read of this mythology and is somewhat of the
 nature that I was speaking of above, is it not?  As far as creating
 goes, mortal man does not possess that capability, for to date, all
 that he is able to do is assemble, tear down and reassemble with
 the thing that has been provided from creation, right?
Just another humble servant of The Kingdom.......clarence.......
... You could never convince a fish that the world wasn't all water!
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.30
---------------