From: "Daniel S. Vieira" 

* irenic * wrote:

> Our mission is to all people, including gay and lesbian people, their
> families, their friends and those with whom they work. Our mission is with
> gay and lesbian people as members of our churches and partners in the
> gospel. This has always has been the case, even when we did not know it.
>
> To accept this does not mean that we have to accept same sex partnerships or
> partnered gay clergy. Historically and in the present day many of the gay
> and lesbian people who have served the church in mission and ministry, both
> lay and ordained, have not accepted such partnerships for themselves nor
> seen them as valid expressions of a holy life for others.
>
> In our present time more and more societies are accepting gay lifestyles as
> valid and morally acceptable. Many countries are committed by law to
> allowing gay rights and offering same sex unions. This means we are required
> to engage in these societies in a new way.
>
> Agreeing to listen does not imply that we must accept the position of those
> to whom we are listening.  However it does mean that we seek to hear God
> speaking to us and discover his will. It does require that we offer respect
> and, perhaps change the way in which we speak.

While the two top paragraphs sound ok, this opens the door to post-moderism
and deconstruction of Christian morality.

Sure, there have always been people in the Christian Church who have had a
homosexual orientation.  And as the second paragraph says, those who are
truly led by the Spirit realize that while such longing comes from within,
the practice of that sexuality is sinful, just as heterosexuals engaging in
sex without marriage is sinful, or doing other sexual behaviors is sinful. 
So homosexuals led by the Spirit would pray to the Lord for strength to
stay away from such sexual behaviors, and not accept a "gay
lifestyle" (with all that entails) as correct.

Paragraphs three and four suggest that as civil law has changed to allow
gay unions and same sex rights, the Church should talk to society about
these things.  That is totally incorrect.  "Listening" suggests
that there is some kind of validity to the counter-argument, but Biblical
law is Biblical law.  The Church should say "this is Christian
morality, and this is what you need to believe and practice to be a member
of our Church and obtain forgiveness of sins and eternal life."

There is no validity to the counter-argument from an ecclesiastical
viewpoint.  Sin is sin, we are commanded to stay away from sin.  Just
because, for example, the United States law allows abortion on demand
through the first trimester does not mean that the Church needs to
"listen" to pro-abortion activists.  Just because the civil law
allows no-fault divorce and rapid dissolution of marriage, that doesn't
suggest that the Church must take such views on marriage into consideration
or "listen" to proponents of that view.

I'm not particularly concerned about what happens on a civil level, as we
live in a secularized society where the Christian Church has no influence
beyond the lives of its adherents.  If the State wants to allow same-sex
unions and give homosexuals marriage rights, that's not going to affect me
or anyone I know.  But, if such people want to come into my Church, or
hopefully any valid Christian denomination, they need to accept the
morality and teachings of the Scriptures and not practice that lifestyle. 
Simple as that.

"Listening" to sinners means that the Church is in a position to
change vis-a-vis their demands.  It's the other way around -- the sinner
needs to "listen" to the Church.

Dan

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