-=> Quoting Maurice Kinal to Nancy Backus on 04-04-06  15:24 <=-

 NB> The basic reasons are, of course, pretty much the same for both... eg
 NB> companionship, love, sexuality, security, acceptance...
 MK> I am not convinced, although I have heard that and have actually
 MK> thought that as well.  However when push comes to shove those
 MK> attributes seem to be the first to fall by the wayside for some strange
 MK> reason. 
 NB> Not that one always gets what they thought* they'd get...  (and
 NB> that goes for both wanting one and wanting to be one)

 MK> Why do you suppose that is?  Seems to me if the attributes that they
 MK> were seeking were genuine in both then there shouldn't be a problem, or
 MK> at least wrt what they wanted, if indeed they were being honest about
 MK> what they wanted. 

Aye, there's the rub.  (to quote someone famous)  Often people *aren't*
honest, either with themselves or with each other.... and it is terribly
easy to fool oneself that one is indeed seeing the attributes desired,
even when they aren't really there, in a person with whom one becomes
infatuated.  And there are far too many people who put on a persona or a
facade to look as though they are someone they are not, in reality.

 NB> When one looks at marriage in general, and the
 NB> expectations of spouses of each other, there is QUITE the list of
 NB> possible duties/responsibilities.
 MK> I thought all that was covered by the basic wants?
 
In theory, I suppose...  :)  Or, perhaps better stated, the list is the
working out of the basic wants in terms of the practical applications.

 NB> Husbands expect wives to do stuff
 NB> they (the husbands) would rather not do, and vice versa...  
 MK> Then that husband wasn't being honest wrt the basic wants of a
 MK> relationship. 

Oh, it's often stated right up front, what the expectations would be, by
both men and women...  Some of it is cultural, particularly those from
one's childhood upbringing, seeing what different roles are being taken
by the adults around one.  And often it IS wanting to have someone else
do particular tasks one doesn't want to have to do oneself...  Of
course, sometimes one isn't always completely honest as to what one
hopes someone else will do, or at least completely up front about it.

 NB> Sometimes the division of labor makes sense, sometimes not...  :)  

 MK> Yes but those labours have little to do with a relationship or not
 MK> seeing as they exist without a relationship.  The dishes don't do
 MK> themselves. 

No, but the relationship makes a difference as to how the task is
tackled, and by whom, and in which circumstances...  :)  Using your
example of the dishes....  If there's only one person generating the
dishes, of course that person is responsible for doing them up.  Once
there are 2 or more people, whose responsibility it is becomes an
issue...  each could be responsible for the dishes self-generated, or
one person could be designated to always clean them up, or it could be
on a rota basis, or.... various permutations...  :)   And when the
expectations, stated or not, aren't met, then the relationship is
usually what suffers.  And this isn't solely in marital or male-female
relationships, of course...

 NB> there's things like being the "trophy wife", being a
"sugar daddy",
 MK> I've seen that.  Quite common actually but usually outside of the
 MK> actual relationship and both are equally guilty of 'cheating' as it is
 MK> commonly called.

I threw those in as being expectations, rather than necessarily valid
ones.  Generally that sort of expectations are more artificial, and yes,
often a part of an extra-marital relationship, or seen as justification
for cheating, sad to say.

 NB> entertaining, raising the kids, being the schedule coordinator for 
 NB> the whole family, transporting the kids to all their myriad
 NB> activities and appointments, cooking, cleaning, laundry, handling
 NB> the finances, yard work, doing the taxes, etc, etc....   :)

 MK> All exist outside of a male/female relationship.  I see many women
 MK> these days doing all the above without a husband.  Occasionally even
 MK> men and they have additional baggage thrown at them simply because
 MK> society is suspicious of men doing those tasks without a wife, trophy
 MK> or otherwise. 

Of course... they ARE all or mostly all needed jobs...  the point being
that one likes to have someone else be doing them instead of having to
do it oneself, whatever the job may be.  So one looks for a wife or a
husband to take the job over for them... but, for the expectations of
someone else doing the work not to destroy the relationship, one has to
find either a balance or work out who does what when...  :)  Which is
why I said:
   NB> Of course, in a good marriage, many of these will end up being done
   NB> by both spouses, either in turn or in conjunction, or being the care
   NB> of one better suited than the other, or be considered not at all
   NB> important for anyone to do...  :)

 MK> If dishes were wishes ...  :-)
 
Well, yes...     Not that our marriage is perfect, by any means, but
we have* worked out SOME of it...  Dishes, each is responsible for at
least rinsing what one uses; cooking, from scratch is usually me, but we
also get a selection of prepared meals that whoever is available can put
in the oven or microwave; laundry and groceries, we usually do together,
with the heavy lifting his responsibility since I have doctor-imposed
weight limitations; yard work is his except for the gardens (if anything
is done there, that's mine); automotive, mechanical, electrical, fix-it,
and computers are all his, as those are in his expertise areas; keeping
track of scheduling is mine, along with most of the remembering names
and dates, as those are definitely NOT his strengths; major bills are
his since he has the primary income, but we mostly have totally separate
accounts, and handle our own finances, mine mostly from a weekly
allowance from which household expenses come or what I can get in "egg
money"; income tax figuring is mine, as I'm better with crunching
numbers; counseling is generally mine, although I pull him in on couple-
counseling, and he does end up occasionally covering for me when it's
friends in need; the kid is grown, but before, we'd both go to school
things when available, but as things progressed, I was more available;
raising the kid was both of ours, and still is, when needed...  And
entertaining we just don't do...    As neither of us is all that keen
on housework (although either could do it, and do it well), for now my
niece comes over to clean for us, for a modest fee.  She does much
better than I could or would, so I'm glad to let her do it.  

 NB> People being people, and certainly not perfect or ideal specimens, 
 NB> they
 NB> come complete with lots of faults which one has to put up with along
 NB> with all that they could be doing for one...  

 MK> For sure.  Sigh.

Goes both ways, of course...  One has to put up with us, too... :)

ttyl         neb

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