> > > Agreed.  Of course, being male, I have my own problems with the more
> > radical
> > > feminism.
> >
> > Right.
> > You're the oppressive scumbag enemy 
> > You're a target, mate
>
> No doubt.  And, of course, made worse because there really are,
> unfortunately, neanderthals who still cling to a female domination
> role.  (Just once, it would be nice to date someone for whom I'm
> not the "one good man" they've met - because, really, that's just a
> lot of pressure - but a whole other issue...)

Well, if they ever took a good look at the men they knew they'd find far
more good ones than they think. Also, if they took a good look at the men
they dated they'd find the one thing they all had in common was her... but
that takes a bit of self-analysis many don't care to indulge in.
In other words... it's not entirely the men.

But a lot of this sort of thing isn't a sexist issue -- it's a human issue.
Ppl are contrary and difficult under the best of circumstances. What we say
we want isn't always what we really want. And what we think we need may not
be so either.

> > But I can understand some of the bitterness, and I haven't had to go
> > through what my mother did.
>
> Oh, I can too, but by the same token, holding me responsible is
> just going to make another bitter person -- especially when, say,

there you go :) That's the problem 

> applying for a government position and knowing that based on
> quota systems to promote fairness being a white angolphone male
> is a penalty.  Suddenly, even if it's only in specific circumstances,
> you have men feeling held back based on someone else's
> interests, and so they become that much more concerned with
> their own.  Bitterness begets more bitterness.   [And make no
> mistake, I know that there's still enough people who aren't
> openminded enough that quotas are a necessary evil]

My friend George finally had to give up on his dream of being with the FBI
or the police force.
He tried for several years -- he'd pass all the tests, often brilliantly I
might add, but minorities, veterans and women were automatically given 20
points as a bonus. Even if he was *perfect* he could be outscored by someone
who did less well than he did.
It's not fair to him at all -- but like you, he can see the need for it.

> > after me (who didn't know the job) got it over me was that he was
> > married, and just had a new baby and had to support them. And who did
> > this? A woman manager. In point of fact -- every unfair moment that's
> > happened to me came from a woman, so is it sexist, or just bad
> > management?
>
> An interesting question.  I imagine there's a fair amount of that
> happening, really... unfortunately.

Yup. Mom, who's been around far more, says that women often perpetuate the
very things they hate... just as the manager at Shepard's did to me. It's a
stunner.

> > But I also know that if I wanted to be CEO my chances are
> > significantly smaller than yours even should I be more qualified. And
> > I also believe that part of the furor and vindictive around Martha
> > Stewart is due entirely to her being a Martha instead of a Mark
>
> *shrug*  I don't know.  To be honest, I always disliked Martha as
> being a little *too* superwomannish, not because of what she

sure -- it was a sort of generality. It's quite possible to dislike Martha
just because you dislike Martha 
And I think she should receive the same penalties as any man for what she
did. As the SEC said -- she's not being indicted because of who she is, but
what she did. I'm perfectly ok with that, and encourage the hell out of it!
 But to think there aren't those who are enjoying seeing her brought low
because she's a woman would be slightly too naive. I mean, Wacksal has been
sentenced, and there are a lot of hounds now baying after Martha... but why
aren't the rest of the CEO's on Slimeball Row also being hounded with
similar ferver? But then I suppose you have to look at things like her case
being far more simple than that against Ebbers and realize you get the ones
you can get when you can get them and not ascribe any paranoia to it.

But... what I was aiming at mostly, was that the criticism of Martha is
*personal* while the criticism of men in similar positions is *business*
she's a bitch, they violated SEC rules. (all in popular opinion, mind, not
necesarilly in the press)

> accomplished (congratulations to her in a free market, I say) but,
> rather, the feeling of inferiority that a lot of wonderful people started
> getting when their dinner parties were held in houses with thin
> layers of dust and made up of primarily reheat from frozen foods.  I
> know it's stupid, but it's about as helpful (and logical) as body-
> image problems.

I can't even imagine having ppl over to dinner without going through a 3-day
process of freaking over the light fixtures being grimy 
It's a sickness. Every guy I know just says "come on over!" and you just
companionably/comfortably push the half-done laundry off the end of the
couch  (I'm playing, don't get all incensed :)
But don't get me started on the body-image thing... at a time when the whole
nation is tipping the scales distinctly over average, all we see on tv,
movies, magazines etc ad nauseum are those tipping the scales distinctly
under average. Thin isn't even thin anymore unless it's borderline anorexic.
Being far away on the other side, I can certainly see that my end isn't any
healthier, but jeez. One is presented as the "ideal" and the
other is buried
under a ton of crap - preferably on Mars. It does tend to dent the armour of
self-appreciation.

> > We've come a long way, baby -- I don't get my paycheck shoved between
> > my breasts as my mother did -- but there's a long way to go.
>
> Well, one hopes that you just don't mind if you notice the person
> standing next to you and supporting you is an evil Ychromer. :)

hey, all my *life* my dearest, closest friends have been male :) It's only
in adulthood that I've come anywhere near the female of the species and
found lasting serious friendship. I grew up with guys, I love guys, I
understand guys... I am perfectly besotted with the Y chromosone :)

> > (always with the caveat
> > that you have to work for it. If you're not working for it and think
> > it should come to you just because, then honey -- it ain't
> > sexism/racism/anyotherism holding you back)
>
> Unfortunately, that doesn't stop people from whining that it is.

no, and it's one of those things that pushes my buttons terribly...
though I try not to let my buttons become so exposed 



--- Rachel's Little NET2FIDO Gate v 0.9.9.8 Alpha