-=> Quoting Maurice Kinal to Nancy Backus on 04-11-06  18:05 <=-

 NB> Aye, there's the rub.  (to quote someone famous)  Often people 
 NB> *aren't* honest, either with themselves or with each other....

 MK> Amen.  I suppose the reason might be that whatever it is they
 MK> want/need they'd rather not admit to seeing it might ruffle feathers. 

When people aren't honest with themselves, it's possible that the
problem is less a ruffling feathers one and more a kidding themselves
that they're something that in reality they are not, or vice versa.  EG,
talking about how compassionate and self-less they are, but in reality,
the bottom line is pretty darn selfish and self-centered.

 MK> With male/female relationships honesty might not be the best policy but
 MK> then again one has to ask themselves if it requires being a phoney is a
 MK> relationship worth the effort, especially what it will take to get out
 MK> of it once it has been determined that it isn't worth it.  Throw
 MK> children into the mess, especially when they weren't wanted, and it can
 MK> get really ugly, really fast and everyone comes out a loser, especially
 MK> the children. 

 NB> And there are far too many people who put on a persona or a
 NB> facade to look as though they are someone they are not, in reality.

 MK> Right.  See my first paragraph.  I think that was my point or a
 MK> healthy part of it.
 
Sometimes the facade/persona is a defense mechanism... often, in fact. 
And often, the person one thinks one wants* to be... but usually finds
out that it wasn't attainable or tenable...  And, as you say, when a
relationship is built, or tried to be built, on such a phony foundation
there are real problems.  So any couple heading into a relationship
really NEEDS to make the effort to be fully honest with each other. 
Sadly, that is often not the case...  

 MK> Put it this way, if either party doesn't know the practical
 MK> applications and how to deal with them before getting married then I
 MK> think there is a good chance that both are off to a very bad start. 
 MK> Having said that, sometimes it gets worked out fine along the way but I
 MK> think that is an exception rather then a rule.
 
I think that it is rare for people to really know all the practical
applications of what they expect of/from the other until they DO start
to work it out.  And I agree that the time to do the bulk of the working
out is BEFORE marriage, or even getting too fully involved with each
other..  But even still, one needs to keep working at it throughout the
relationship... circumstances change, abilities change, and so forth. 
One of the expectations, on both sides, needs to be that things WILL be
worked out and at all along...  :)  As a friend of mine quotes me (I
don't remember* saying it originally, but it's enough like me to be
possible, so I guess I'll claim it ), "Marriage isn't living happily
ever after, it's WORKING happily ever after."

 MK> Sometimes I suppose.  I don't know.  It has been quite some time for
 MK> me as far as male/female relationships are concerned.  After my only
 MK> marriage, I haven't really pursued a live together relationship with a
 MK> woman as I doubt women would appreciate the path I ended up travelling
 MK> on since.  Me?  I am not convinced I appreciated it but here I am.
 
Dunno... I suspect we all end up traveling paths we aren't sure we or
anyone else involved with us truly appreciate...   We just have to
learn from the experiences and use them to change for the better...
hopefully, anyway... ;)

 NB> by both men and women...  Some of it is cultural, particularly those 
 NB> from one's childhood upbringing,

 MK> I imagine so although I don't find myself there even when I was there.
 MK> Something went 'wrong' somewhere along the line since if my upbringing
 MK> was such an influence then neither my marriage or newfound singulatrity
 MK> is reflected that I can see.
 
Much of the cultural isn't the big stuff, it's the stuff you don't even
think about, but which can jump out to bite you and the relationship
when the two of you have even slightly different backgrounds.  EG, my
parents always owned everything in common, ie the car would be be in
both names, the bank accounts were all joint ones, etc.  So I just
assumed that when I got married, his name would go on my car along with
mine, mine would go on his car with his, we'd merge all our accounts and
so forth.  He reacted practically with horror to that...  But then, his
father had died when he was young, and his mother had all the accounts
and such in just her name, except for the ones joint with each of the
boys, which she turned over to them as they became of age.  His parents
might even have done some separate accounts even beforehand, but I never
knew his father, obviously, just how things were when I came into the
family.  Upshot was, he prevailed, and most everything is separate
except for the few things that make better sense to have joint.  The
house is joint, the camp property that we bought together is joint, one
account in the area where we have the camp property is joint, and fund
investments are mostly joint with right of survivor, and we file the
income tax returns jointly.  Everything else is separate, with each of
us having responsibility for our own things.  And as we've gotten cars
to replace the ones that wear out, there's been always a vehicle in my
name, and another in his name (eventually, anyway... sometimes we've
only had one, but it would be in one name or the other).

That's more the sort of thing that I was thinking of...  But there are
other examples of how your expectations can be colored by what you grew
up with, either in your birth family or in some aspect of what has
influenced you (which I short-handed to "cultural").

 NB>> do it oneself, whatever the job may be.  So one looks for a wife or a
 NB>> husband to take the job over for them... but, for the expectations of

 MK> Not me.  I don't like doing dishes but I'd rather just do them then
 MK> use that as an excuse for wanting a wife.  I can think of MUCH better
 MK> reasons for having a wife around then having someone to do my dishes. 
 MK> ;-) 
 MK> Having said that, not always for that particular reason either but
 MK> certainly that reason moreso then a dishwasher.
 
Ah, yes... :)  And again, I was just explaining the concept in general. 
I'm sure that those sorts of the reasons weren't anywhere near the
surface for us, if they really existed as reasons at all... but that
sort of reason often is underlying...  

 NB> Well, yes...     Not that our marriage is perfect, by any means, 
 NB> but we have* worked out SOME of it...
 MK> Sounds perfect to me but then I suppose we'd need to define
 MK> perfection, no? 

If the definition includes working at things still, maybe it is... ;) 
But we still have our ups and downs... and disappointments with each
other... ;/

 MK> Right.  I haven't found that person yet ... not that I am looking all
 MK> that hard.  I am not sure why I am not looking but I am not for
 MK> whatever reason. 

Sometimes things happen serendipitously...  :)  And status quo is
usually much more comfortable than going off and trying to change
things... :)

ttyl       neb

... Taglines are like cats.  You just think they're yours.

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