From: "bramble" 

On 27 mar, 23:32, "CE"  wrote:
> On Mar 27, 6:41 pm, "bramble"
 wrote:
>
>
>
> > On 27 mar, 18:35, "CE"  wrote:
>
> > > 
>
> > > Two things spring immediately to mind. First, religious belief is not
> > > the result of mindless drones simply following the dictates of their
> > > masters. In many cases, religious belief has spread in opposition to
> > > the wishes of the socio-economic elites and even against the existing
> > > laws. During the early days of the church, for example, Christians
> > > were hunted down and killed. And in some countries, it is illegal
> > > even
> > > today to be a Christian. Believers in those countries meet in secret.
> > > But the religion itself carries on and spreads.
>
> > A jump to transcendence
> > Wait a moment.  Wait a moment.
> > First, we are risking to overestimate the number of Christians in
> > these conditions of repression.  How on earth can we know how many
> > Christians there were in times of Nero?  And in times of Constantine
> > before making it a state religion?
> > Well, there were some Christians all right.  But any religion starts
> > to grow that simple.  Look at the Guru Maharashi that came to live in
> > London as a singular immigrant.  It was singular, because he was not
> > any fucking immigrant from India, but he was not less that the
> > "reincarnation" of the god Krishna.  Do you follow me?  How many
> > whitie Londoners he convinced to go begging money on the streets, with
> > his head shaved and wearing light orange tunics?  You could see them
> > everywhere, begging in the tube and train stations, before the movie
> > theaters, and in the main bus stops.   If only the Queen of England
> > had decided that the true god were the Krishna and that everybody had
> > to worship the guru Maharashi as the reincarnation of god... Well,
> > times nowadays are not very ripe for a new state god that came
> > illegally from India, and the British monarchy has not enough clout
> > for that enterprise, has it?  We are not in times of the Roman Empire;
> > not even in the times of Henry the VIII any more.
>
> > So, you are not coming at me throwing at my face this shit of the
> > Christian martyrs, are you?  A minority is a minority, is minority.
> > Just look at the communist of the world over.  They were also a
> > minority, and were able to brainwash people as to make revolutions,
> > and going to war here and there.  And their god Marx was not an
> > Almighty god, but people nevertheless were able to risk their lives
> > for the cause of the proletarian revolution, weren't they?
>
> > So, do not underestimate the frailty of the human mind to be changed
> > by ordinary means of brain washing.  This is not a rare occurrence.
> > Looked at those people that are doing the "terrorist
suicides".  They
> > are common folks, not unnatural freaks.  The four young men that
> > produced the explosions in London, some months ago, were not in
> > Afghanistan, nor in a training camp of Al Qaeda.  They were four lone
> > young men that were repeating among them the topics heard at extremist
> > Islamic preachers.  So they were alone some months reinforcing each
> > other about the project of making a bomb and kill as many fucking
> > Christians as they could and after a time of mental preparation they
> > did it.  By doing this, these young man tried to elevate them at a
> > higher level of transcendence.  They were unhappy with their lives
> > because they were nothing but pure Islamic trash young men with
> > irregular shit jobs.  They were not happy with this condition, they
> > wanted to be great, like the heroes of old stories and movies.
> > A higher level of transcendence can be achieved when you discover and
> > believe that this frail old man, the guru Maharashi, is nothing less
> > than the god Krishna.  You can feel overwhelmed with this powerful
> > revelation.  And this god is so near of you!  He had countless times
> > spoke tenderly to you.  He had caressed you, even he made you to rest
> > your head over his lap, while the god messed up your hair with his
> > divine fingers.  You can do anything for a god like this, would not
> > you?  Because you were nothing but a white punk and he discovered you
> > sad and alone wandering in the streets.  And the god came to you and
> > he was like a sweet daddy for you.
> > So, in the case of minorities is not so difficult to believe in a new
> > god whatever, or in any other redeeming ideology.  It could be a
> > communist revolution or an Islamic revolution; it can be anything that
> > would raise you from the nothing of the mean streets to the divine
> > mountains of transcendence where the gods dwell.
>
> > But if you want to have a religion for the control of 99 % of the
> > population in a giving country... well, then you will need a great
> > army of threatening thugs.  If you have not such an army... they would
> > not be afraid of telling you "fuck off, you, son of a bitch".
> > That is how the main dominant religions were established; well, and
> > all the revolutions.  You have to instill the a good deal fear on the
> > dissidents, till they hide themselves into the closet.
> > Bramble
>
> I'd respond but I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.

What point I am trying to make?
Here it is.


My point is that religions are just a sort of brainwash to start with. 
Later on, they could get a huge momentum thanks to the power of the state.
You can consider now how easily most people in England accepted the
position of King Henry the VIII as he separated from Rome.  Only a handful
of Catholics dreamers were willing to risk theirs lives fighting for their
fidelity to Rome. So, someone was trying to make a point about the
immorality of homosexuality saying that most people of the world thought
was immoral, unnatural, or other.  Then, I replied, the believes of common
people is not natural to them, but imposed by a leadership or other. Just
imagine that the thinking against homosexuality is natural to most people
for a moment.  Well, then what is the purpose of this campaign against
gays?
The different people that wrote the Gospels about the life of Jesus were
living in the Roman Empire.  And very probably were not Jews, never met
Jesus, and never heard a word about the life of Jesus, except perhaps some
small pieces of text that they were using to blow up and enlarge a good
story.
So, this people, that were probably Roman citizens in the Eastern part of
the Empire, had not any idea that the Jews had such tremendous prohibitions
against homosexuals, for in Rome homosexuality was a privilege of the rich
and the stronger.  The stronger or older would use for their sexual relief
the weaker and younger, as well as their slaves and servants, but I am
referring to using young people, for it was disgusting the idea of use of
older people for that purpose.   So,
the writers of the Gospels did not write anything against this sort of
homosexuality because they were viewed as natural, as a private matter
between a master and his slave, and it was quite common. In the case of
Paul, if he was a real Jew, he could not avoid to get shocked by the great
number of prostitution houses in Corinth.  In this city, there were not
only female whores, tens of thousands, but there were also a lot of male
prostitutes.  Corinth was a beacon of debauchery for lustful tourists. 
Then, to Paul, if he came from a Jew culture, this would have been a shock.
 For in Palestine even female prostitutes were a hidden business.  And it
does not mean that the Jews of certain economical level could not use a
young male for lustful purposes, but it was an enterprise not to brag about
for cultural reasons.
 My point is that is... that only through the influence of the Jewish
culture into Christian and Muslim religions homosexuality was declared a
vicious and shameful sin.  All the rest of the world religions had not
pointed any stern finger of rebuke onto this. These were my points.
You cannot use as an argument "ad populum" like a majority of
people in the world declare homosexuality the most obnoxious sin.  And I
told you that the opinions of this people (Christians, Jews and Muslims)
were mediated by rules imposed on them by a minority of rulers.  And you
cannot point the argument of the martyrs either, or else the Muslim faith
would be declared the true and only one at this moment. Either, the
communist martyrs cannot be used either as prove of how good is this
ideology, and so on.
Bramble

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