(mark_sobolewski{at}yahoo.com) writes:
> Andre Lieven wrote:
>> (mark_sobolewski{at}yahoo.com) writes:
>> > Andre Lieven wrote:
>
>> > Can you read ahead a bit?
>>
>> Sure. I was just pointing out that, for an awful lot of well
>> connected women, its not working for them, and they're not that
>> quiet about it.
>
> We can talk honestly here.

Of course.

> Haven't they been doing this for a WHILE though?

Yes. That shows that the learning curve of the Brain Rotted
Feminism is very near a flat line.

But, others not so afflicted can learn from their MS-takes.

> Since the early 80's, the career women
> have been whining about "men shortages" and a lack of
> manners, etc.   It's a tune that so old as to no longer
> be considered worn-out, but rather a golden oldie.

Agreed. The thing is, that while such complaints were rather
accpeted, back then, enough people have re-considered the
question, and are telling the spinster crowd back " Yes,
is is due to you ! ".

> Do you see the beginnings of a trend of women getting
> their heads screwed on straight?

Some. But, those afflicted with the victimhood disease will
only blame someone else for their MS-fortunes. Sigh.

>> > See above.  Their attitude is that they're
"special" and therefore
>> > it doesn't matter if they're in the minority or not.  Heck, they
>> > probably even prefer it that way.
>>
>> Indeed. My question is more of, is that minority shrinking or not ?
>> Evidence seems to suggest that it is shrinking, so it's likely that
>> more and more such women will become unhappy.
>
> That's an ugly thing for you and I to celebrate even if we
> do think such women deserve it.

Well, I'm not exactly dancing in the streets over it. I'd
rather that men and women knocked off the bull/cowshit and got
on with the business of making better lives for themselves.

But, I can take a certain karmic satisfaction in the fact
that the misandrous harridans have managed to all but breed
themselves out of existance. Even fertility clinics are almost
out of sperm... 

> The goal I think for now
> is to try to figure out which women are becoming "happy"
> with men and how.

Generally, thats easy. Look for people who are honest, and
who *actively reward* honesty in others. They'll do well,
with no need for cults of victimology.

>> Indeed. I'm reminded of an old Harlan Ellison essay on early
>> video dating, where he had to tell one woman who chose him,
>> " Lady, you're too mean even for *me* ! ". 
>
> If we do a comparison for cootie covered men in their 30's
> today, compared to maybe 10 years ago, the situation has certainly
> improved, eh?

Possibly. I can't say that I've paid as much attention to that
topic, to really come up with reasonably firm conclusions for
myself.

> Lots of geeky guys went to the personals in the past and it
> was ugly.  Today, many of these men are frustrated but I think
> it's workable.  The women are certainly a few inches down
> from their pedestal than before.

Theres still many feet for many of them to go, yet...

>> >> True. Often she rewards no one but herself. Such women have
>> >> the same person to blame for their aloneness.
>> >
>> > But bluesmomma isn't alone and that's why I'm respecting her
>> > fantasy.
>>
>> OK. I'm not, because setting up such a scenario seems to me to
>> be making the odds of it's failure worse. Not to mention the
>> fate of the poor Feminised pussy-boi...
>
> Yeah, but maybe you're taking it too seriously.  I've learned
> not to listen totally to what women say (don't tell the wife :-)

OK.  Seriously, I more watch how their lives play out. Sex
And The City was a wonderful microcosm of that...

> Maybe the secret of the success of her relationship, so far,
> is that she has these little fantasies and the husband doesn't
> have to do anything further about them.  She got her
> little white horseman and now he can rest on his laurels
> provided he brings home some flowers and puts on a show from
> time to time.  Maybe she doesn't crack the Pwhip on him.
> (That may be why she's here.  She doesn't want to use it at home.)

Thats possible, sure. But, given divorce rates in the 50s of
percentiles, and the fact that not only are most chosen by the
wives, but that, most of those are for quite minor " reasons ",
until I see some serious changes there, your suggested scenario
seems to me, to be a minority one.

>> Sure. Lots of that pathology around. Should we " respect " their
>> views, too ?
>
> I was talking about acknowledging when they got away with it.

Well, consistancy would then demand that I do the same for bank
robbers. So, I'll pass on that. I can acknowledge it, but not
respect it.

>> > I think it is possible for a relationship to mature into
>> > a more open and honest one.
>>
>> Yes, it *can*, but it does have much better odds of that happening,
>> if it starts as an honest relationship, free of mind games, and
>> the like.
>
> How many women are capable of this though?

Were they free of the brain rot of Feminism, far more. My S/O
is quite capable of that, and lives best in that state. I dare
say that not a few other women could say the same, were they
given the chance and mindset to try it out.

> Men have to go through
> grinding rejection when they start out dating and many
> of them are damaged by it.  Women are crushed by honesty.

Sure. But, honesty can work two ways, either as a crushing
thing, or as a liberating thing, where one needs not lie, and
then, have to keep track of the growing parcel of lies, rather
just speaking truths, and letting their minds and hearts
express truths, which often give their own consistancy.

> I think you're making a mistake and buying into the Parg
> "equality" "egalitarian" nonsense.

Oh, Hell no. Rather, while men's and women's experiences
socially will be different, that simple honesty and rewarding
returned honesty can, when it's a shared value by both, make
both's lives better, and easier.

When you remove the eggshells on the floor, the fear of their
noise kinda goes away, too...

> As sexists, we must
> accept that women are flawed creatures who need to have
> their fantasies appeased.  If they were equal to us,
> would we be having this discussion?

No, but they don't need to be equal to us in all things, to
share with us this area of shared values.

>> As no humans have infinite time, we cannot place our few years
>> into such low trend line odds, and expect more than a few wins.
>
> I think what men can do is maybe figure out ways to play
> games that work for them and help to disempower the games
> women play.  Generally, the Germans and Japanese were quite
> nice folks after a few years of US occupation. :-)

Yo, gaijin ! 

Again, the point is that the removal of a percieved need to
play those games, can be very liberating, all around.

>> > Also, maybe it doesn't kill
>> > a relationship if the man BS's the woman about the first
>> > date or pretends to enjoy watching girl films with her.
>> > Maybe a little dishonesty is good and healthy for most
>> > couples.
>>
>> I don't think so. Its one thing to pretend to like what you
>> don't, in an effort to make another feel more comfortable,
>> but IMHO, its better to make an honest effort to share such
>> fare, with the stated caveat that not all things will be so
>> shared, and that some avocations will be more about one than
>> both. And, that thats OK, too.
>
> In some ways, a super honest relationship can result in
> more communication problems than one where tact is used.

Well, my model does include tact. Its not about playing an
honesty game, where one blurts out any offensive thing at
any, often, inopportune time and place. Rather, tact is a
shared value in there, as both need tact, to be able to be
comfortable with each other, both when they're alone, and
when they're among others, and that that includes a tact
based shared trust, the knowledge that one's spouse will
not share what either deem private.

> Look at the harpies: They're going on and on about how they
> want the poor bastards to defend themselves lest the women
> hurt him AND the guy has to respect her as an equal
> princess too.  Sheesh!  If the women could just admit that
> they're a bunch of girl-children and give the man some
> credit and enjoy the lie for what it is, they might
> be a lot happier.

Or even accept that what each brings to the table allows
both to live better, without a need for esteem building
head games.

Games can be played, for fun. But, they should not substitute
for real and considerate honesty.

>> >> Ouch. One promo for Dr. Phil's " teaching idiots how to
>> >> raise their kids " had a guy who bought a 6 year old a cell
>> >> phone. Reason ? " The other kids had them. " Feh.
>> >
>> > This depends upon the strength of the parent.  All things
>> > equal, if the parent didn't buy the cell phone, the
>> > child would then be singled out as a "loser" and his
>> > self-esteem would suffer.  It's ugly, but that's reality.
>>
>> Not really, in this case. 6 year olds with cells ? Come on,
>> I don't see the likelyhood of such " peer pressure ". And,
>> teaching a kid to resist such, stands the kid in good stead
>> to resist more dangerous peer pressures later on.
>
> Trying lead from a position of poverty is a lot harder
> than success.  I know.  It's tough to stand up to the crowd.

Sure. " We choose to go to the Moon and do the other things, too,
not because they are easy, but because they are hard. " JFK.

" If you never say what you mean, you can never mean what you
say. " Centauri Minister, B5.

If one never teaches one's charge(s) to stand up for themselves,
then what stops such later grown charge(s) from being functionally
little more than sheep ?

> The best thing to do may be to give the kid a PDA and then
> ask him to set an example and maybe trade it in for
> a calculator.  In other words, by staying ahead of the trend
> and then abandoning it, he helps to transcend it.

This, of course, assumes that theres some kind of trend of
cellphones for 6 year olds. The data that I saw simply said
that " The older kids had such, so 6 year old demanded it,
too. " Good parents say " no " at the appropriate times.

> A lot of this is about building self-esteem too.  It's easy
> for you and I, adults, to lecture and pontificate about how
> they should set and example and stand up to the crowd but
> we're talking about 6 y/o's here!!!  They simply don't
> have that emotional strength yet.  Maybe help them get it
> first, with guidance, and then discard the crowdthink
> at their leisure.

Indeed. Howevere, my point wasn't about the kid demanding it.
Many kids demand many things that they oughtn't have, and
don't have the maturity to have. Rather, the point was the
adults caving in, and giving the kid the cell, for *no other
stated reason than* " he wanted it, and screamed until he
got it. ". What lesson did that teach the 6 year old ? Scream
and you'll get.

>> > If a parent is going to have a child stand out, then
>> > he should do it in a way that gets the child ahead of
>> > the game.  Don't just buy him a cell phone.  Buy him
>> > a PDA! :-)  That will put him on top of the alpha
>> > pack.
>>
>> Or, teach him how to stand up for himself, as an individual,
>> not a pack herd creature...
>
> But do it in baby steps.

Sure. Start with cell phones for over 10 year old kids, only.


>> >> > Nearly all the women I know tend to move much less often
>> >> > than men and will stay in a rotten neighborhood or
>> >> > with their families because it's comfortable to them.
>> >>
>> >> The same can be said of their jobs, and thats a major reason
>> >> for the " wage gap ". Women often choose non
cash comforts
>> >> over more cash.
>> >
>> > Well, they choose the more cash in their relationsships than
>> > man by comparison.
>>
>> Sure, to make up for what they chose not to be a part of, in
>> their own " careers "...
>
> Provided they are doing this reasonably, and accepting
> the true limitations of their roles, why not?

" Their body, their choices... their responsibilities. "

No one need subsidise anyone's free choices, or their consequences,
in such an area.

> What's interesting is women kind of like Parg:
> Plain janes working in pizza joints or as secretaries but get this
> feminista attitude.  I mean, come on?  Talk about going
> to war with a slingshot...

No wonder thongs are so popular ! You can make slingshots from
them ! 

Andre

--
" I'm a man... But, I can change... If I have to... I guess. "
                                    The Man Prayer, Red Green.


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