In article ,
 "Society"  wrote:

> "Mark Sobolewski"  wrote in message
> news:mark_sobolewski-EB763B.08511624032005{at}news.central.cox.net...
> >
> > Society wrote:
> >>
> >> Chance Hopkins barked...
> >> >
> >> > "the messenjah" reported...
> >> >>   
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/kathleenparker/kp20050323.shtml
> >>
> >> Excerpt:
> >>
> >>    Michael Schiavo, who was Terri Schiavo's
> >>    husband when she suffered a heart attack
> >>    and severe brain damage 15 years ago,
> >>    today lives with another woman with whom
> >>    he has had two children. Except that he has
> >>    never sought a divorce from Terri - and
> >>    therefore by law has final say over her life -
> >>    he is by no normal definition her "husband."
> >>
> >>    Kathleen Parker, "To help live or let die"
> >>    ©2005 Tribune Media Services, March 23, 2005
> >>
> >>
> >> > A friend of mine said recently:
> >> >
> >> > "In my 50 years of life, I have NEVER heard
> >> > anyone say they wanted to be kept alive
> >> > artificially as a vegetable."
> >>
> >> Cute, Chance Hopkins, but irrelevant.
> >> Bet'cha you've never heard anyone say
> >> they'd like a broken arm, either, but that
> >> doesn't tell me that if you break your
> >> arm you'd like to be put down like the
> >> dog you aspire to be.
> >
> > It's always a pleasure to disagree with you.
> >
> > A broken arm isn't the same a loss of
> > conciousness.
>
> Well, we don't disagree on that, Mark.
>
> It wasn't the "loss of consciousness" that was
> the key element of Chance Hopkins' attempted
> wisecrack but that in 50 years Chance has
> "NEVER heard anyone say" blah blah blah.
>
> There aren't a lot of 50-year olds who we'll
> hear saying how much they look forward to
> being 70 years old, but I'm confident that
> most people upon considering all the angles
> will conclude that it DOES beat the alternative!
>
> >> Also, Terri Schiavo is not a "vegetable"
> >> nor is she being kept alive "artificially"
> >> any more than you are when you're
> >> fed with a bottle.
> >
> > I hate to make a cute quip at a time like this
> > (the whole situation is very tragic) but
> > feminists regard a fetus as not even human
> > because the woman's womb feeds it.
>
> Well, Mark, there's no limit to a feminist's
> stupidity -- nor is there a limit to her control
> freak fetish, either.  (Sigh.)
>
> Next, I suppose the feminist camp will
> move to declare a 'post-partum fetus' "not
> even human" if the woman breast feeds, eh?
> Sheesh.
>
> >> > Can anyone here truthfully say they would
> >> > like to be kept alive as a vegetable,
> >> > on life support?
> >>
> >> Your red herring was disposed of earlier
> >> in this post, Chance Hopkins.  Sheesh.
> >
> > Her state isn't much beyond that.
>
> Well, there's some credible dispute about that.
> See this document -- especially the list of criteria
> for distinguishing between a permanent vegetative
> state (PVS) and a minimally conscious state (MCS)
> that begins on page 3:
> http://www.nationalreview.com/pdf/Affidavit.pdf
>
> This is a tough case and if the man still seen in law
> as married to Terri Schiavo weren't, um, compromised,
> by his ongoing disregard of his marriage obligations
> I might well not give much weight to the sincere
> belief of her blood relatives that she is still conscious
> in her crippled brain and body.

What makes this case so tragic and difficult is the gray
line and ambiguity of the situation.  If the husband
was truly compromised, wouldn't he have taken the
million offered to him and taken a walk?

My wife, FYI, agrees with you.  She says that if the parents
want to care for her, then what's the problem?  Let
her go and make everyone happy.

Actually, I have a sick joke/question for you:
Let's say your mind was so deteriorated that you
became a male feminist sympathizor and marxist
and felt sad that women weren't getting better
treatment even as they were treating you like crap.

Would you want to be put out of your misery?

Here's another sick joke for the occasion:
http://www.netfunny.com/rhf/jokes/02/Apr/jones.html

> I've been giving this case much thought for some
> time.  I contemplate the possibility that Terri
> Schiavo's parents are correct, that she's damaged
> but not at all dead in her cerebral cortex and
> I try to imagine what sort of consciousness is
> possible to someone with such diminished
> capacities.  I shudder when I think on it.  But
> I do wonder if such an existence entails that
> the person in that state is suffering.  And I conclude
> "Not necessarily."  The diminished but not snuffed
> out consciousness may be such that it is not aware
> of what has been lost and that consciousness may
> be continuing on with no need at all to mourn
> what has been lost.  The historical case of Phineas
> Gage, the man whose frontal lobe was damaged
> in a railroad construction accident illustrates to
> some degree the point I wish to make.  Mr. Gage
> didn't have the same personality after his injury
> but he still had personhood.

I saw an interview with the husband and he's quite
intelligent in discussing the issue.  Did you
see him question whether the state should determine
whose decision it is about quality of life?
Is not suffering sufficient to keep someone alive forever
even at the objection of their guardian?

My father was clear: He wanted the plug pulled.
Not only that, but he wanted it pulled for his
family's sake as well as his own.  He wanted to move
on.  If there was some federal judge empowered to make
the choice otherwise, he might have lingered for months
and caused a lot of pain for everyone.

> To put it crudely, how many IQ points would a
> human being have to lose before life is unlivable?
> (Yeah, Parg may be a case in nature that illustrates
> just such a situation.  And with her cerebral cortex
> reduced to the capacity of a sterile worker bee's
> mental states, upon examination I conclude that
> Parg's life is not worth living. ;-)

Ok, I'll be selfish and talk about the pink elephant:
What about livable for others?  Is simply lingering
in a minimal dreamlike state, at best, justification
for blowing millions of dollars that could help
other people live better lives?

> >> By the way, Terri Schiavo has been in a
> >> minimally conscious state for 15 years and
> >> only NOW her man pulls this "she wouldn't
> >> want to live like this" claim outta his *ss.
> >> His behavior belies his claim.  He's acting
> >> just like the woman now on Court TV who
> >> offed her man and NOW claims that he was
> >> abusing her -- he's not able to tell HIS SIDE
> >> of the story, very convenient for her.  Hmmm.
> >
> > I think he's been in a court fight for years over
> > this and only now has it wound its way through
> > the legal system.
>
> For only the last few years, not the entire15.

Which, in all fairness, means he wasn't so quick to
give up on her recovery.  Which is worse?
Him trying to pull the plug the whole time
or giving up only after all other alternatives have
been exhausted?

Interestingly enough, this case made Russian TV.
So many of these issues are being discussed on a world
state.  Oh, wait, GW says we don't have to give a shit
about a global test. :-)

regards,
Mark Sobolewski


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