Hello Andre,

There's some juicy stuff in here, but I'm going to
need to trim the fat:

In article ,
 dg411{at}FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Andre Lieven) wrote:
>  (mark_sobolewski{at}yahoo.com) writes:

> Well, I'm not exactly dancing in the streets over it. I'd
> rather that men and women knocked off the bull/cowshit and got
> on with the business of making better lives for themselves.

I agree but as you and I both know, we live in a pretty
sick society.  For one thing, it's incredibly misandric
combined with its women who desire and need strong men.

People can't just "move on" until our society is radically
restructured and this includes killing some very sacred
cows including the notion that women can "have it all"
and that men are disposable.

That's a dream similar to marxism for a lot of people:
They don't want to let it go.

> But, I can take a certain karmic satisfaction in the fact
> that the misandrous harridans have managed to all but breed
> themselves out of existance. Even fertility clinics are almost
> out of sperm... 

Yeah, but that's kind of like salting the earth too.

it is kind of neat how it's happened in our lifetimes, eh?
This isn't like the roman empire (or even the British
Empire) that took centuries to collapse.  This is a matter
of a single generation or two.

> > The goal I think for now
> > is to try to figure out which women are becoming "happy"
> > with men and how.
>
> Generally, thats easy. Look for people who are honest, and
> who *actively reward* honesty in others. They'll do well,
> with no need for cults of victimology.

Here's the thing: I think a lot of women now are so arrogant
as to be completely honest.  I think many of them
don't even bother with the "sensitive but strong"
BS crap: They just want rich professionals to breed
now.  Many don't even care about politics.  They went
to school because that's what was available to them
and it was a backup.

Yet, even so, they still come across as golddiggers.
The notion of women being able to marry and quit their
hobby job was a mostly upper middle class notion.
For most of human history, women worked for a living.
That's another sacred cow that will need to slaughtered:
The notion that being a spoiled, pampered housewife
is somehow a reasonable fallback position.  Or even
just marrying a decently wealthy guy.  These
were products of the mid 20th century that existed
for a few women.

For most women, it's going to be about a lot of compromises
especially with the mess feminism has created.  It's a buyers'
market for professional men for these kinds of women and
it's only getting better.

> >> Indeed. I'm reminded of an old Harlan Ellison essay on early
> >> video dating, where he had to tell one woman who chose him,
> >> " Lady, you're too mean even for *me* ! ". 
> >
> > If we do a comparison for cootie covered men in their 30's
> > today, compared to maybe 10 years ago, the situation has certainly
> > improved, eh?
>
> Possibly. I can't say that I've paid as much attention to that
> topic, to really come up with reasonably firm conclusions for
> myself.

The notion of women placing a personal ad was considered
scandalous a mere 10 years ago.  Most women wanted to
consider themselves too attractive to bother with such
a thing.  They should have been able to just go about
their daily business and have a guy hit on them.

As other posters point out, it was mostly the women in
their 30's onward that did this kind of thing.  It's a sign
of the times that now many young women are hitting them
as well.

> > Lots of geeky guys went to the personals in the past and it
> > was ugly.  Today, many of these men are frustrated but I think
> > it's workable.  The women are certainly a few inches down
> > from their pedestal than before.
>
> Theres still many feet for many of them to go, yet...

Yeah, but they've lost their grip.  That means quite a bit.
It starts slow...

> OK.  Seriously, I more watch how their lives play out. Sex
> And The City was a wonderful microcosm of that...

I find the series reasonably intersting and even
self-critical of these women.  It's amazing how women
such as Charlotte, who are materialistic as hell,
can wind up having a decent relationship.  However,
I think the series is a little overoptimistic:
It wants to put a smiley face on everything and presume
that these women won't have REAL serious problems
or wind up burned out.  That's because it's entertainment,
of course.

When I lived in California, I knew literally a half dozen
women on Prozac in their 30's.  No kidding.  This curbed
their depression and lonliness but also made them
emotionally worthless.

> > I think you're making a mistake and buying into the Parg
> > "equality" "egalitarian" nonsense.
>
> Oh, Hell no. Rather, while men's and women's experiences
> socially will be different, that simple honesty and rewarding
> returned honesty can, when it's a shared value by both, make
> both's lives better, and easier.
>
> When you remove the eggshells on the floor, the fear of their
> noise kinda goes away, too...

The fact is, if I had confronted my wife on some of her
little lies I think she would have been devestated.  However,
I did keep on eye on them.  They were little things
that were important to her but not really important.

> >> Not really, in this case. 6 year olds with cells ? Come on,
> >> I don't see the likelyhood of such " peer pressure ". And,
> >> teaching a kid to resist such, stands the kid in good stead
> >> to resist more dangerous peer pressures later on.
> >
> > Trying lead from a position of poverty is a lot harder
> > than success.  I know.  It's tough to stand up to the crowd.
>
> Sure. " We choose to go to the Moon and do the other things, too,
> not because they are easy, but because they are hard. " JFK.

Yeah, but how many 6 y/o kids have trillion dollar budgets,
a father who breaks his opponents' legs, and
a team of adoring press agents turning every gesture
he makes into a legend?

As you can tell, I don't worship JFK.  I think he was
basically first "movie star" political figure
in the states (perhaps other than George Washington.)

Go to the moon?  No problem!  Blow a few trillion dollars
of martyr money and set up juicy contracts to grease
the home districts of various senators, and it's not
a big problem.  I don't buy into this hero nonsense
about it being so hard.  Well paid engineers and
glory seeking astronauts can do quite a bit without
breaking a sweat.  In fact, we should give credit to
the fact that this isn't really all that exceptional.
This kind of technical accomplishment should be commonplace.

> " If you never say what you mean, you can never mean what you
> say. " Centauri Minister, B5.

Oh, now that's REAL geeky!  Yuck, I'm going to wipe off
my screen.  I'm seeing acne medication!

> If one never teaches one's charge(s) to stand up for themselves,
> then what stops such later grown charge(s) from being functionally
> little more than sheep ?

Then again, are you (in this hypothetical situation)
telling him to stand up for himself _OR_ to stand up
for YOUR opinions and values?  It's real easy to
you to tell someone else to stand up but harder for
him to do it especially if he doesn't yet have the resources.

I guess this keys into honesty with women and "tact".
I accepted that sometimes, the men do have to cave in
and give the ladies what they need and crave.  They
need to feel "special" and important and the man
taking care of them in a sexist fashion AND some
"equality" too.

> > The best thing to do may be to give the kid a PDA and then
> > ask him to set an example and maybe trade it in for
> > a calculator.  In other words, by staying ahead of the trend
> > and then abandoning it, he helps to transcend it.
>
> This, of course, assumes that theres some kind of trend of
> cellphones for 6 year olds. The data that I saw simply said
> that " The older kids had such, so 6 year old demanded it,
> too. " Good parents say " no " at the appropriate times.

Certainly.  I'm not saying otherwise.  I wouldn't want
to teach them to follow the crowd (especially at his
parent's expense.)  What may be neat about the mobile phone
thing would be to try to buy him a killer PDA and then in
the future, not have him follow some other trends.
In other words, mix things up a bit and give him
the opportunity and freedom to decide which trends
he likes and doesn't want to follow.  Who knows, maybe
he likes some of the trends?

> > A lot of this is about building self-esteem too.  It's easy
> > for you and I, adults, to lecture and pontificate about how
> > they should set and example and stand up to the crowd but
> > we're talking about 6 y/o's here!!!  They simply don't
> > have that emotional strength yet.  Maybe help them get it
> > first, with guidance, and then discard the crowdthink
> > at their leisure.
>
> Indeed. Howevere, my point wasn't about the kid demanding it.
> Many kids demand many things that they oughtn't have, and
> don't have the maturity to have. Rather, the point was the
> adults caving in, and giving the kid the cell, for *no other
> stated reason than* " he wanted it, and screamed until he
> got it. ". What lesson did that teach the 6 year old ? Scream
> and you'll get.

Oh, agreed there.  If they act like that, then the lesson
to teach isn't about how to manage dealing with trends
but rather in respecting their elders.  I would then
go a little further and take away their designer shoes
and give them generics and let the other kids have at 'em
for a day.

Isn't this interesting?  I can see how women love playing
some of these head games.  The key here is that the kid's
interests need to be taken at heart unlike these women
who seem to view men as objects.  They come across
as sociopaths at times, yes?

> >> Sure, to make up for what they chose not to be a part of, in
> >> their own " careers "...
> >
> > Provided they are doing this reasonably, and accepting
> > the true limitations of their roles, why not?
>
> " Their body, their choices... their responsibilities. "
>
> No one need subsidise anyone's free choices, or their consequences,
> in such an area.

Absolutely.  That's why I love living in DC and watching
protests by young hairy-legged feminists usually without
a man around crying, gasp, that they might have to
pay for their own healthcare or daycare!  Boo hoo!

regards,
Mark Sobolewski


--- UseNet To RIME Gateway {at} 3/25/05 12:46:05 AM ---