FM> They didn't have to "prove" to be wrong, Mark.  Those who adhere to them
 FM> always DISCOVER that they were wrong.  Philosophy as I have reiterated
 FM> over and over again was BORN as PHILO-SOPHUS, the exact and direct
 FM> opposite of PHILO-DOXUS (love of search for truth versus love and
 FM> possession of doxa or dogma).  I don't see any semantics there. Doxa, a
 FM> system of ideas of opinions purporting to be THE truth is the DEADLY
 FM> ENEMY of philosophy.  That should be plain enough, I should think.  ANY
 FM> SCIENCE INVADED BY DOCTRINE is ruined at the very point of the invasion
 FM> because it is flatly closed to any further examination.  I don't see any
 FM> equivocation there.  Now as to the continued argument about using the
 FM> term "ideology" to describe system-building as a derailment of
 FM> philosophy I've already listed the antecedents for this.
 MB> I conceded your point about ideology.  In fact I never used the term in
 MB> any recent discussion.  That seems to be the passtime of David and John.
 MB> I did see, and still do see, that your position on the use of the word
 MB> "system" is rather dogmatic indeed, even if I do, for the most part,
 MB> agree with it.  It is plain to me, that when you say "I don't see any
 MB> equivocation there" that you are stating a position which is rather
 MB> dogmatic, in that there is no question that you hold the truth about
 MB> Systems and Ideologies, and there can be no arguments.
   I think, then, that we have not a great mountain to climb in the matter of
meanings of words, Mark.  A "system" can indeed be an entity of one kind or
another that is limited to obvious or agreed upon boundaries.  I thought it
might be understood that when I use the term "system" in the context of
"doing" philosophy I might be understood as referring to the erecting of
"philosophical systems" by those "doing philosophy."  That is what I believe
to be a theoretical mistake.  It is a mistake because the noetic search in
philosophy is the search for the truth of existence and the truth of 
xistence
not only can ONLY be symbolized it cannot be know fully by mortal human 
eings
who only exist themselves as "participants" in reality EXPERIENCED.  Reality
appears to have an eschatological movement but the end of that movement can
ONLY be symbolized.  We do not and (if we agree with Plato) we cannot know as
mortals what only immortals could know, i.e. the full structure of reality -
"how it all begins" (or "how it all ends" for that matter. 
   Hegel's symbold of "geist" was supposed to indicate that the revelation of
the truth of existence which took a large spurt with Plato and continued
through the Christian revelation had now come into the possession of man who
now POSSESSED the knowledge of being.   This does not illegitimize the
philosophical work of a giant but it does reveal its great weakness.  When
Marx took Hegel's "spirit" and made "matter" the center of his "discovery" of
the end of history (inevitability of the triumph of the bourgeosie in the
class struggle which for Marx was the center of history) he made the same 
ind
of theoretical mistake as Hegel and he revealed this by telling those who
questioned him - "just give up your questioning and then there will be no
problem" or words to that effect.
   That's about the best I can do, Mark.  At least you know from whence I am
coming - I hope.
   I (grin) have a "computer system" sitting before me and I'm using it.  
t's
all right to call it a system if we understand what we mean by it.  You and I
know, however, that it's still far from being a completed system, don't we?
If I were getting ready to sell it to you I would not begin to tell you that
you are buying the only "system" you'd ever need even you you lived
immortally!!
   But as I "immortalize" (perfectly O.K.) I mythicize about the kind of
perfect computer system which makes sense to me but which I'd find difficult
to explain to you.
Sincerely, 
                                     Frank
                                                                              
                                                       
--- PPoint 2.05
---------------