appears to be several minutes of conversation, P.I.  responded to
his questions, on at least ten occasions, with "I hate you."
P.I. began to participate in the conversation but continued his
refusal to discuss anything concerning Kelly. In an attempt to gain
his cooperation, the investigators tried a different approach:
[*329]
Investigator (I): Come on do you want to help us out? Do you want
to help us keep her (Kelly) in jail.
P.I.: No.
* * * *
Investigator (I): Tell me what happened. . . . I'll make you fall
on your butt again.
P.I.: No!
* * * *
Investigator (I): I'll let you hear your voice and let you play
with the tape [**58] recorder. I need your help again, buddy. Come
on.
P.I.: No.
* * * *
Investigator (I): Just tell me -- show me what happened with the
wooden spoon.  Let's go.
P.I.: I forgot.
Investigator (I): No you didn't. I'll tell you what, let's just go
to the P.I.  doll, we won't waste any time.
Investigator (II): Now listen you have to behave.
Investigator (I): Do you want me to tell him to behave?
Investigator (II): Are you going to be a good boy? Huh? You have
to be good. Yes or no?
P.I.: Yes.
* * *
Investigator (I): If you don't remember words, maybe you can show
me.
P.I.: I forgot. . . .
Investigator (I): You remember. You told your mommy about everything,
about the music room. And the nap room. And all the stuff. You want
to help her stay in jail don't you. So she doesn't bother you
anymore and so she doesn't tell you any more scary stories. Did
she tell you a story like about this little bird and he built a
nest. But did she do that though?
P.I.: Yes.
After P.I. began to cooperate the interviewers' questions turned
to more specific acts allegedly committed by Kelly. P.I. told
Investigator (I) that he and another Wee Care child put their
penises [**59] into Kelly at the same time. They were able to
accomplish that by chopping off their penises. Further, some of
the children had to urinate in Kelly's mouth, and she would do the
same to them. P.I. also discussed the utensils used by Kelly on
the children.
[*330]
Investigator (I): Did she put the fork in your butt? Yes or no?
P.I.: I don't know, I forgot.
Investigator (I): You forgot? O.K. Did she do anything else to your
bottom?
P.I.: That's all that she did.
Investigator (I): What was it that she did to you?
P.I.: I hate you. I hate you.
Investigator (I): Oh, come on, if you just answer that you can go.
P.I.: I hate you.
Investigator (I):  No you don't.
P.I.: Yes I do.
Investigator (I): You love me I can tell. Is that all that she did
to you, what did she do to your hiney?
Investigator (II): What did she do to your hiney? Then you can go.
P.I.: I forgot.
Investigator (II): Tell me what Kelly did to your hiney and then
you can go. If you tell me what she did to your hiney we'll let
you go.
P.I.: No.
Investigator (I): Please.
P.I.: O.K. O.K. O.K.
Investigator (I): Tell me now.
P.I.: O.K.
Investigator (I): What did Kelly do to your hiney?
P.I.: [**60] I'll try to remember.
Investigator (I): What did she put in your hiney?
P.I.: The fork.
Investigator (I): Did that hurt a lot? Did you bleed?
P.I.: Nope.
3. B.M.
On June 26, 1988, Investigator (I) interviewed B.M., a six year-old
boy. The interview began in typical fashion with Investigator (I)
asking B.M. to draw pictures of himself, his mother, his father
and Kelly. After B.M. drew several pictures, Investigator (I) began
asking B.M. about Kelly.
Investigator (I): I talked to all of [the kids in your class] and
they were telling me how they didn't like the stuff Kelly was doing.
Anyway I like talking to you older guys better because you're better
to talk to, more like grownups than the little kids in the nursery
school. So I'm asking you a favor --
[*331]
B.M.: Why because they talked about Kelly because she did something
bad to them?
Investigator (I): Uh, huh.
B.M.: What?
Investigator (I): She did bad stuff to them.
B.M.: Not me.
* * * *
Investigator (I): She was hurting some kids in not some nice ways.
So I'm wondering if you saw anything. You can help me to find out
who some of the hurt kids are so that I can make it all better
again. Because they [**61] must be pretty upset and pretty mad.
B.M.: What did she do?
Investigator (I): Well, I don't want to tell you exactly what she
did because you may know something that I don't know yet, and that
can really help. . . .  These are funny dolls. A little different
from those you have seen before.
B.M.: I want to leave.
Investigator (I): Why.
B.M.: Because I don't like --
Investigator (I): Like what? You don't like being here: Well you'll
be out of here in a couple of minutes. And you never have to come
back if you don't want to. Anyway these are -- what's different
about these dolls, this one's a boy.
B.M.: Yeah.
Investigator (I): Because he's got a what? What do you call this?
B.M.: I don't know.
Investigator (I): You know. Is it a peepee [sic] or a penis? What's
the word you use?
B.M.: A wee-wee.
* * * *
Investigator (I) then went to a female doll and asked B.M. questions
about its anatomy.
Investigator (I): What are these things. What do we all have here?
Breasts or boobies, what do you want to call them?
B.M.: You're teaching me.
Investigator (I): I'm not teaching you, I am asking you. Come on.
Don't go throwing stuff around like that. It's not [**62] very
nice.
B.M.: Stop teaching me this stuff.
Investigator (I): You got [sic] to learn somehow. The little
three-year-old kids knew what everything was. And you don't. Anyway,
what I did is [sic] show the kids dolls like this and then I pull
out this stuff. A wooden spoon, a fork, a knife and a teaspoon, a
metal spoon. Your daddy was telling that you would hit mommy. [*332]
Mommy would hit you on the butt sometimes when you deserved it,
right? But aside from that did you ever see Kelly hurt anybody with
this?
B.M.: Yeah.
Investigator (I): How do you think she might hurt somebody with
this? For example, it would hurt, how do you think she might hurt
a little boy with this, this wooden spoon.
B.M.: She did that. [Apparently demonstrating with the doll and
the spoon that Kelly would smack the boys on the bottom.]
Investigator (I) introduced the possible use of other utensils into
the conversation, identifying each to B.M. B.M. steadfastly refused
to say that he was hurt with any of the utensils by Kelly. At one
point however, he seemed to implicate his mother as the one
responsible for the bruises on his back.  Investigator (I) continued
to question B.M. about how Kelly used [**63] the various utensils
on him and his friends. At one point he exhibited frustration at
not receiving the cooperation or the answers for which he was
looing.
Investigator (I): I want to ask you something.
B.M.: No.
Investigator (I): Don't be a baby. You're acting like a nursery
school kid. Come here. Come here a second. B.M., come here. We're
not finished yet. Sit down.
B.M.: No.
Investigator (I): Come here. Seriously, we are going to need your
help on this.
B.M.: No I'm not.
Investigator (I): How do you think she would hurt boys and girls,
with a fork? A fork in the face? Sticking on the legs? The arms or
--- FMail/386 1.0g
---------------