> In a message to Robert Linenweber  David
 > Kirschbaum wrote:
 DK>> The recon missions were safe as houses.  Two VNAF pilots in
 DK>> a pretty standard Cessna, as I recall, and the Recon guy
 DK>> sitting in the back seat.  They'd navigate us to the general
 DK>> area (all at around 5000 feet or so, way way WAY high), and
 DK>> then the Recon guy would have to convince them to fly over
 DK>> what he actually had to look at.  We never liked the VNAF
 DK>> pilots for recon because you couldn't _see_ anything; they
 DK>> wouldn't get low enough for you to get a decent look at the
 > You don't happen to remember that "pretty standard Cessna" do
 > you?  There was the O-2 (Cessna Skymaster) that the USAF flew
 > but I don't remember VNAF having any.  They did fly O-1s, but
 > that wouldn't be two pilots in front (even for a couple little
 > VNAF guys.
You know, I've been trying to draw a mental picture of that VNAF recon 
aircraft.  I can see those two VNAF pilots sitting in the cockpit as they 
taxiied up to pick me up, clear as day .. and the funny grey color of the 
aircraft .. but for the life of me, can't even remember if it was a tail 
dragger or not!  I _think_ it was something like a Cessna 182.  They 
supported us regularly, but most of the Recon guys preferred the Army pilots 
because we could get a better look at the ground.
Oh, I know the Skymaster .. ye olde Pushme-Pullme.  They were our "Covey" 
aircraft, provided radio contact and relay during our missions (usually flew 
over once or twice a day to make sure we were still alive and would take our 
SITREPs if we were out of radio range of any radio relay sites (like 
LEGHORN).  They also did the FAC thing, covering our chopper insertions and 
extractions, bringing in any stray fighter bombers that might be in the area.
We had our own Coveys (out of Pleiku), with one of the Recon guys (Army NCO 
or junior officer, called them "Covey riders") riding in the right or back 
seat to do the ground radio work, understand what was going _on_ down there, 
etc.  (I'd have _killed_ to get to be a Covey rider, but they needed me on 
the ground .. sigh ...)  Of course, we'd call on any _other_ O-2's that might 
be buzzing around, but usually we didn't have their radio freqs, etc.  And 
didn't like to use guard.  (NVA had entirely too many URC-10 radios of their 
own, damned good way to get DF'ed.)  Only time I used guard to talk to 
strangers was when a FAC was working out some F-100's, dropping 500 pounders 
on a truck park.  And he didn't seem to know we were hunkered down one ridge 
away :-)
 >                      We had what was
 > described as a "two ship line."  We didn't fly west of the two
 > ship line without another O-1. The low ship flew more in the
 > 1,500 AGL level and the high ship flew would be at least 1,000
 > above or more if weather permitted.  The high ship was needed
 > because we would lose communication with everyone when we were
 > back there low and in the mountains, plus if you were back
 > there alone and had a problem it was likely you were going to
 > win the SGLI Sweepstakes there.
We never had two, only just one, so we were on our own.  Of course, 
communicating back with anyone was not a high priority.  Not during VR's or 
insertions/extractions.  Sometimes the Covey would have to leave us and climb 
out to talk to people far away (we usually didn't know who).  But he'd be 
back down pretty quick; tremendous psychological boost to know our Covey knew 
_precisely_ where we were!  We used "shineys", those E&E mirrors, whenever 
possible to show him our location.  No way to see a panel unless we were 
_really_ out in the open, and usually a smoke wouldn't make it up through the 
triple-canopy jungle .. plus it would give our location away, so no smoke 
(hardly ever).
 DK>> While the Army guys in their L-19's would get right on
 DK>> _down_ there!
 > I know the guys you flew with.  Cat Killer.  That was the 220th
 > RAC.  We were Black Ace, the 21st RAC.  They flew the northern
 > half of I Corp and we flew the southern half.
I was in II Corp, with most of our support coming out of Pleiku.  We'd work a 
little north (maybe as far as an area called the "Golf Course" (because it 
was so damned open :-( ), but mostly in the Tri-Border area.  Usually used 
Dak To, Dak Pek, or Ben Het as forward launch sites to get our chopper launch 
closer to the target area.  Our sister unit, CCN, did all the nasty stuff in 
the northern areas.  They used to work out of Phu Bai, with launch sites 
further west and north.
 >  They were under
 > the same 1,500 AGL rule as us.  The difference was we ignored
 > the rule some times and they obeyed the rule some times.  ---
 > All things considered, I think we were on the right track.  The
 > 220th took an awful lot of loses that weren't in keeping with
 > the mission they were trying to perform.  ---  The way it
 > worked with us is a pilot would go down low, get the scare of
 > his life, and then go back up.  Depending on the pilot's
 > personality they might never come back down again or they might
 > be back down in 15 minutes.  We had a couple pilots who spent
 > their whole time low.  They are dead.
That one trip with that USA Captain in the L-19 was the most "flying tiger" 
mission I was ever on in a fixed wing.  Usually they'd just chug around at 
1500 feet or above, like you say (and the VNAF Cessnas at 4000 or 5000 feet 
AGL) .. but this guy really took me down where I needed to be.  There was 
this road, see, and trails nearby .. and it _really_ helped to get down 
ose.
Donno if he lived out his tour or not.  I did _not_ know an L-19 was so 
acrobatic!  Split-S, Immelman .. no problem!  :-)
DK>> as they came back to our CCC camp at Kontum from a mission
 DK>> .. the
 > Well heck.  No doubt about it, if you were there you saw the
 > war with a capital W.
Hell, we had it easy compared to our buddies up at CCN!  Now _they_ had the 
tough missions!  We only had maybe 30 or 35% casualties during the year I was 
with CCC, but the CCN guys would routinely lose whole teams!  Ugh ugh ugh!
One of my more unpleasant missions was when I was with the Hatchet Force out 
of our CCC camp.  One of our Coveys came out to say hello and see what we 
were doing.  (The company was sitting on a hilltop, dug in, trying to 
interdict an NVA highway and generally aggravate the local defensive 
regiment.)  Covey said hello and went out further west to check out where the 
highway _really_ was (they'd put us on the wrong damned hill) .. and we lost 
contact.  No mayday, nothing, just lost contact.
One of the other Coveys came out and thought they saw something down in the 
trees, so I cranked up my platoon and we walked down off our nice secure hill 
to check it out.  About 5KM away, and a _very_ nasty area indeed, since we 
just _knew_ that lousy NVA regiment wasn't gonna let us sit there forever, 
even if it _was_ the wrong hill and it was "traffic as usual" over on their 
highway.  But NVA didn't notice us or something, and we found the O-2 crash 
site.  Wings gone, tails gone, two engines crunched all together.
It was getting dark, and I did _not_ want to spend the night out there, so we 
grabbed the Crypto gear we could see hanging out of the cockpit wreckage.  
There were maps, papers, documents, CACs, weapons, mixed up with the remains 
in the cockpit, but we didn't have tools or anything to take apart all that 
twisted metal.  It was _very_ frustrating to stand there, with the 'yards in 
a tight perimeter and them all wide-eyed and afraid .. as much of possible 
ghosts from the dead men in the O-2 as from the NVA in the area .. and not be 
able to recover the pilot and Covey rider.
So we set the bird on fire and walked on back to our hill.
And the next day another platoon from the Hatchet Force walked out with a 
bunch of crowbars and stuff, took apart the burned wreckage and retrieved the 
human remains.  Brought the body bags back to the hill, and we medevac'ed 
them that day.
Never did figure out why they went down.  They were close enough that we 
would've heard any gunfire.  There was a 37mm over by the highway that used 
to shoot at passing fast-movers.  It was scary to hear him firing, that big 
chuga once a second, and to see the explosions up there at 5000 feet or so, 
tracking perfectly beneath a fast-mover maybe 10,000 feet above that!  Scary, 
in that he tracked so well .. and he had ammo like that to practice with!
But we never heard a shot when the Covey went in.  Well, at least the guys 
weren't MIA.
 DK>> the US guys who flew for the Headhunters and Pink Panthers
 DK>> and the
 > Well now, reading this again, Headhunters wasn't the company
 > north of us. They were south when I was there.  I don't
 > remember where.  I think they were the 74th RAC.  Of course the
 > companies moved around, so depending on what year we're talking
 > about they could be in a different place.  My unit, the 21st
 > RAC, had been in Tay Ninh about 9 months before I got there.
 > The old guys were full the of the Tay Ninh stories.  I spent
 > both tours in Chu Lai.
Headhunters and Pink Panthers were both out of Pleiku as I recall.  They'd 
fly up to the CCC camp daily, pick up the teams that were launching that day, 
and then continue on up to Dak To (or wherever the launch site was gonna be). 
 They'd then sit around at the launch site all day, flying insertions and 
extractions as planned or required, and then go home again at dusk.
The VNAF Kingbees would do the same thing, except they stayed right there at 
the CCC camp.  Oh, they might fly downtown to the Kontum strip to refuel or 
get some maintenance, or to Pleiku (I think to goof off and meet their lady 
friends) .. but mostly they lived right there at our camp.  I have lots of 
pictures of Kingbees parked, flying, etc.  To include the one that blew a jug 
as he came in full bore over the wire and impacted right into our bunkers!  
So we had a slightly bent Kingbee sitting astraddle a bunker and our 
defensive berm for days until we finally convinced someone to send in a Crane 
to pluck him out.
 DK>> other outfits that supported us "Deep Within Enemy-Held
 DK>> Territory) there in the tri-border region.
 > That was definitely south of us.  We had Laos along our western
 > border.
 DK>> West of DakTo .. that might've been me :-).  Or if the names
 DK>> "HOTEL 9" or "CHARLEY 7" or "The Bra" or "LEGHORN" ring a
 DK>> bell ...
 > DakTo yes, but I can't remember where it was in relation to us.
 > I got lost as a son of a gun one time and I ended up at an SF
 > base that wasn't even in our AO.  We also had to evacuate to a
 > base more in your area during a typhoon.  Again, fuzzy memory
 > and I can't put the names with the places anymore.  "The bra"
 > rings a bell, but I suspect there were a lot of places with the
 > same nickname.
What?  You got LOST?  Tch tch tch.  :-)
That must've been embarrassing .. to have to ask some very curious SF guy 
just where in the world you were :-)
 DK>> David Kirschbaum SGM, USA SF (Ret) Recon 10, SOA (CCC)
 > Bob Linenweber, LTC, USAR
 > first put on a uniform March 1996 and still in uniform (and
 > just passed a PT test yesterday) -- and darn proud to make your
 > aquaintance.
1996?  That's a typo, right?
I'm not so sure I could pass a PT test right now .. give me three months 
maybe :-)
Pleased to "meet" you too.
(For you lurkers out there, hope we aren't boring you with these old war 
stories.  Especially "muddy boot" war stories :-)
---
Hello Dave:
=> I wonder if those were A-1E's as well.  I doubt any _other_ piston 
ighter-
=> bombers were flying off carriers by then.  Any Corsairs left were probably 
al
=>
=> with the Marines and flying off land bases?
          I have long thought that a Skyraider would be a really nice
recreational aircraft.   If I cannot someday afford a DC-3 to go flogging
around the country, I would consider a Skyraider.  :-)
                                                  Ken
>> "Blackbird, hold short three zero.  Gooney Bird on short final."
--- PBNet v1.91 #5
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