++> Concerning a Frank Masingill/John Boone exchange
 ++> on Ideology vs. Philosophy
 
 JB> Just in case you missed -some- of what Frank advocates falls
 JB> into dogma. In particular, his dogma, assumption, that man
 JB> doesn't have the ABILITIY to preceive REALITY.
 
      I don't mind a little dogma once in the while.
 
 FM> John, I very much dislike being starkly and deliberately
 FM> misrepresented.  I can GUARANTEE YOU that I have NEVER, EVER
 FM> said any such thing - NEVER!!!
 
 FM> I HAVE said (and it makes all the difference in the world, so
 FM> listen VERY carefully:  Man, as a PART of the reality in which
 FM> he exists cannot KNOW THE FULL STRUCTURE OF REALITY.  Why is that
 FM> so difficult to understand.  Our ineluctable position within
 FM> reality is as a part of it.  Our perceptions can only BE within
 FM> that limited range.  This doesn't mean we can know NOTHING of
 FM> reality because we experience it of necessity.  We cannot,
 FM> however, give an account of reality as though we were an
 FM> observer standing or sitting somewhere ABOVE OR BEYOND OR
 FM> OUTSIDE of reality with that reality as an OBJECT.
 
 FM> I make a determined effort not to take the words you guys use and
 FM> twist them into MY PERCEPTION of what I THINK you said.    Debate
 FM> loses all sense when one cannot be assured that his thoughts will
 FM> not be changed into something entirely the opposite from what he
 FM> expressed, do you not agree?
 
          Debate looses much of its sense in too may words!
 
     Clarity seems a difficult accomplishment .....and monitoring
     PHIL this past year has indicated to me that "definition" has
     been MORE the guilty of disagreements than any substance of topic.
     Those om a compatible plain (i,e, You and Day Brown) have the least
     exchange problems. I'm a bit unquick (and not on a plain with anyone),
     but I catch up eventually (your "ideology = closed dogma, but easier
     to remember as "evil empire-ish"). JB and I skirmished endlessly on
     the definitions of "LIBERAL" and "CONSERVATIVE" and actually never
     agreed on meaning (in fact it continued to worsen until we both
     sort of dropped the issue). This distance of any understanding
     leaves any future exchanges on that topic area certain to stay
     "mumblings" of empty meaning. It is not because he didn't try,
     but more his not being able to synchronize with the way I think.
     Also, he is not happy with dictionaries either (except when
     convenient) .....but now from both of you, I at least half
     understand that clarity often gets in the way of presenting
     one's favored views. Gorgias was honest-right in saying that
     words become what they need to be when pressed to clever sell-
     (quotation might be badly worded from my memory ...taken from
     the internet on sophism).
 
 FM> Our perception of REALITY, however, is certainly limited.  As
 FM> Voegelin phrases it, man is NOT a "self-contained spectator"
 FM> he is an actor "playing a role in the drama of being and,
 FM> through the brute fact of his existence, committed to playing
 FM> it without knowing knowing what it is.... The role of existence
 FM> must be played in uncertainty of its meaning as an adventure
 FM> of decision on the edge of necessity and freedom." (_Order and
 History_, Vol I, page 1).
 
   Frank, after reading many of another's words, we develop a near
   auto-translator when dealing with that "another's words". Perhaps
   wrong initially, successive encounters tune the translator.
   For instance, I translate your reality insights (when you're not
   into "faith mode") as follows-
 
   >>> All known, is relative to our partial understanding of
   >>> "reality". ....or to shorten it some, "everything appears
   >>> relative"
                                       ...of which I agree.
 
   I don't see a Voegelin guest adding any meaning to what I read
   but I do find third party ideas placed into well sequenced
   words, often a pleasant way to magnify insights and differences,
   sometimes yours, sometimes mine, sometimes ours................
 
                          ??
                          oo ... Dave
--- Maximus/2 3.01
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