To:
From: "Steve Oostrom"
Reply-To: trekcreative{at}yahoogroups.com
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>SO - I'm surprised there's another way to list stories.
=20
>JM - There won't be, for much longer: I'm consolidating the two pages, and=
henceforth the stories will be listed in chronological order, with a brief=
synopsis, rating and approximate date of composition and revision.=20
In my humble opinion, this will improve the "Star Trek: Liberty" site.
>JM - All pretension aside: Perhaps I'm better at such divisions than you a=
re. Place the excerpt here, as is, and then let me amend it: No content
cha= nges, of course, but---
>---we and the gallery could then examine them side-by-side to determine wh=
ich method is superior; or, more likely, learn it's conditional on both the=
stylistic choices of the author and the context of the dialogue.
Actually, I think this view of breaking down dialogue paragraphs is
subject= ive. Joe might like it, and I might not, and Joe could convert a
sample of=
my writing to his way of doing things, and I could convert a sample of his=
to my way of writing, and guess what? Joe will say his version of my pass=
age is better and I'll say that my version of his passage is better. I
kno= w I won't like it because I've been reading it on "Liberty"
and it stands o= ut. I notice it and I'm distracted by it, and I do not
feel it flows as we= ll as the more conventional style. I find it unlikely
that I will come aro= und to Joe's way of thinking. About the only
situation I would split up a = person's dialogue into more than one
paragraph is if a large amount of thou= ght or action statements come
between dialogue.,
=20
>SO - I think it's pretty standard in published writing. I can almost imag=
ine editors changing what an author said into this particular style.
Altho= ugh published books might occasionally have one person's dialogue
split ove= r multiple paragraphs, it is not so common that it stands out.
>JM - I've been an editor, and I think it's just fine---better than the con=
vention, to be frank.
>We'll test that, though, since it's a worthwhile exercise---assuming you a=
gree and wish to participate. We'll have to also take one of my passages
an= d give it the Steve treatment, to be fair.
>This is to improve everyone's craft.
I don't think I'll use the passage I was referring to, since it's a
non-Tre= k story, and reading the passage in isolation, you'll have no idea
what is = going on. Maybe I'll find a suitable passage from an
"Athena" story and le= t Joe experiment with that.
>SO - Of course, I can see that. His numbers might not be Kirk-like, but h=
is technique is.
=20
>JM - Again, I don't at all agree.=20
=20
>I see what you're saying, but believe the similarities are entirely superf=
icial. Mantovanni genuinely respects women more than Kirk does, from what
w= e've seen in The Original Series, the films and at Liberty. Kirk has too
mu= ch of the, "Hey, baby" thing goin' on, except with Uhura
(hell, he even pul= ls it once or twice on the female Romulan commander in
"The Enterprise Inci= dent," so it's obviously
ingrained)---though I have to say Mantovanni does = have his own rather
brusque style of discussion on occasion. He certainly h= as a combination
of both dismissiveness and regard in his final conversatio= n with
Donaldson during "The Cotillion."
>As I've said, he doesn't believe in seduction. Kirk clearly does. That, in=
my opinion, makes him a better person insofar as this aspect of their resp=
ective lives is concerned.
I understand that. Maybe "seduction" is the wrong term for it,
but I still=
get the feeling that Mantovanni is closer to the Kirk technique than the T=
horpe technique. I simply could never imagine Captain Thorpe doing what
Ma= ntovanni did in "The Cotillion," but I could imagine Kirk
doing it. I unde= rstand that Mantovanni respects women more than Kirk,
but when reading "Lib= erty," especially stories like "The
Cotillion," his actions remind me more = of Kirk than, say, Picard.
=20
>SO - He will never be a Kirk, and quite likely won't even reach Mantovanni=
numbers.
>JM - Well, I for some reason assume Kirk's had at the very least dozens, a=
nd more likely hundreds of women, while Thorpe's at three or four and
Manto= vanni seven-to-nine total.
But Thorpe is at just one as a starship commander (so far; that could
chang= e, but through "Tribal Rights," it's just one).
>Neither of the latter two is a Lothario, IMO. Mantovanni is much more easi=
ly placed with Thorpe than Kirk, if you view it objectively.
Lets put it this way, in terms of their feelings towards women, the respect=
they show to women, their number of conquests and how they approach intima=
te relations with women, Mantovanni, Kirk and Thorpe are three quite
differ= ent people, which is as it should be. Why read stories featuring
captains = who are exact clones of some other captain?
>I don't think Starfleet keeps score. Tim Kirk is not a ladies man, nor=20
is he celibate.
>That Conflict of interest thing comes up again. To maintain proper=20
distance from the crew it is difficult for a Captain to have lovers on=20
the ship. Ergo, they might, as a group play a little harder in port.
I can definitely see the point of this. Most captains might have female
fr= iends on other ships, perhaps people they knew while rising through the
ran= ks, and people they can hook up again for possibly brief relationships
when=
the opportunity presents itself. In most cases, having relationships on b=
oard the ship might be more difficult because of the command hierarchy and
= how the captain can order his lover around. It would be an unequal
relatio= nship. Actually, having Thorpe encounter the woman I was
referring to as p= art of Thorpe's backstory could produce an interesting
story. I'm getting = definite ideas here. I kind of like the inspirations
I sometimes get readi= ng these posts and thinking about them.
Steve
The Universe Unbounded.
Visit "Star Trek: Athena" at http://ussathena.iwarp.com
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>SO - I'm surprised there's another way to list
stories. >JM - There won't be, for much
longer: I'm consolidating the two pages, and henceforth the stories will be
listed in chronological order, with a brief synopsis, rating and
approximate date of composition and revision.
In my humble opinion, this will improve
the "Star Trek: Liberty"
site.>JM - All pretension aside:
Perhaps I'm better at such divisions than you are. Place the excerpt here,
as is, and then let me amend it: No content changes, of course,
but--->---we and the gallery could then examine
them side-by-side to determine which method is superior; or, more likely,
learn it's conditional on both the stylistic choices of the author and the
context of the dialogue.
Actually, I think this view of breaking
down dialogue paragraphs is subjective. Joe might like
it, and I
might not, and Joe could convert a sample of my writing to his way of doing
things, and I could convert a sample of his to my way of writing, and guess
what? Joe will say his version of my passage is better
and I'll say that my version of his passage is better. I
know I won't like it because I've been reading it on
"Liberty" and it stands out. I notice it
and I'm distracted by it, and I do not feel it flows as well as
the more conventional style. I find it unlikely that I
will come around to Joe's way of thinking. About the only
situation I would split up a person's dialogue into more
than one paragraph is if a large amount of thought or action
statements come between
dialogue., >SO - I think
it's pretty standard in published writing. I can almost imagine
editors changing what an author said into this particular style.
Although published books might occasionally have one person's dialogue
split over multiple paragraphs, it is not so common that it stands
out.>JM - I've been an editor, and I think it's
just fine---better than the convention, to be
frank.>We'll
test that, though, since it's a worthwhile exercise---assuming you agree
and wish to participate. We'll have to also take one of my passages and
give it the Steve treatment, to be fair.>This is
to improve everyone's craft.I don't think I'll use the passage I was referring to, since it's
a non-Trek story, and reading the passage in isolation,
you'll have no idea what is going on. Maybe I'll find a suitable
passage from an "Athena" story and let Joe experiment with
that.
>SO - Of course, I can see that. His
numbers might not be
Kirk-like, but his technique is. >JM -
Again, I don't at all agree. >I see
what you're saying, but believe the similarities are entirely superficial.
Mantovanni genuinely respects women more than Kirk does, from what we've
seen in The Original Series, the films and at Liberty. Kirk has too much of
the, "Hey, baby" thing goin' on, except with Uhura (hell, he even
pulls it once or twice on the female Romulan commander in "The
Enterprise Incident," so it's obviously ingrained)---though I have to
say Mantovanni does have his own rather brusque style of discussion on
occasion. He certainly has a combination of both dismissiveness and regard
in his final conversation with Donaldson during "The
Cotillion.">As I've said, he doesn't
believe in seduction. Kirk clearly does. That, in my opinion, makes him a
better person insofar as this aspect of their respective lives is
concerned.
I understand that.
Maybe "seduction" is
the wrong term for it, but I still get the feeling that
Mantovanni is closer to the Kirk technique than the
Thorpe technique. I simply could never imagine Captain Thorpe
doing what Mantovanni did in "The Cotillion," but I
could imagine Kirk doing it. I understand that Mantovanni
respects women more than Kirk, but when reading "Liberty,"
especially
stories like "The Cotillion," his actions remind me more of Kirk
than, say, Picard. >SO -
He will never be a Kirk, and quite likely won't even reach Mantovanni
numbers.>JM - Well, I for some reason assume
Kirk's had at the very least dozens, and more likely hundreds of women,
while Thorpe's at three or four and Mantovanni seven-to-nine
total.
But Thorpe is at just one as a
starship commander
(so far; that could change, but through "Tribal Rights," it's
just one).
>Neither of the latter two is a Lothario, IMO.
Mantovanni is much
more easily placed with Thorpe than Kirk, if you view it objectively.
Lets put it this way, in terms of
their feelings
towards women, the respect they show to women, their number of conquests and how
they approach intimate relations with women, Mantovanni, Kirk and Thorpe
are three quite different people, which is as it should be. Why
read stories featuring captains who are exact clones of some other
captain?
>I don't think Starfleet keeps score. Tim Kirk
is not a ladies
man, nor is he celibate.>That Conflict
of interest thing comes up
again. To maintain proper distance from the crew it is
difficult for a
Captain to have lovers on the ship. Ergo, they might,
as a group play a little harder in port.
I can definitely see the point of
this. Most
captains might have female friends on other ships, perhaps people they knew
while rising through the ranks, and people they can hook up again for
possibly brief relationships when the opportunity presents
itself. In most cases, having relationships on board the ship
might be more difficult because of the command hierarchy and how the
captain can order his lover around. It would
be an unequal relationship. Actually, having Thorpe encounter the
woman I was referring to as part of Thorpe's backstory could
produce an interesting story. I'm getting definite ideas
here. I kind of like the inspirations I sometimes get reading
these posts and thinking about them.
Steve
The Universe
Unbounded.
Visit "Star Trek: Athena" at http://ussathena.iwarp.com;">http://ussathena.iwarp.comhttp://ussathena.iwarp.com">http://ussathena.iwarp.com;
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