CH> You see I was so very thrilled to read that article seeing it as
 CH> RARE good news, (which okay yeah, doesn't sell papers)- I forgot it
 CH> might not be received in the same way.

 CH> Another enlightening pov has been cast upon this article wrt women
 CH> waking up to being human rather than cattle-

cattle or chattle?? one roams about fields while both are posessions...

 CH> Someone else here commented to me in private on this article,
 CH> saying the woman's efforts goes to show people of other countries
 CH> CAN take care of themselves. They CAN initiate and manage those
 CH> causes we have dealt with and still are dealing with- ourselves.

 CH> They don't NEED MR USA Cop meddling at all. I would however give
 CH> those women in that Kenyan village, a hardy vote of confidence for
 CH> no reason but Encouragement! :) As in a popular pep talk cheer:
 CH> "You GO girl!" This could be where applicable:  'you go guy!'

 CH> Oh.. I find CAN DO attitudes; news articles like that-
 CH> Inspiring!!!! 


 JF> popular feminist party line..   'Feminism is the idea that women are
 JF> people'...as if society needed them to tell us this.  Not a very

 CH>  Yes. I have been made aware of this potential hazard. Whenever I
 CH> find myself getting a bit militant I remember the quite stone
 CH> gathers the most moss. I remember comments on feminism made by
 CH> successful career women saying "we're too busy DOING what they only
 CH> bicker about." Yet what those successful career women (joining
 CH> traditionally male professions) sometimes forget is it took many a
 CH> PROTEST to get a foot in the door for the first women; a door these
 CH> next generation gals now more or less blissfully sail through.

 JF> healthy assessment of society.  Read:  Anti socialism disguised as

 CH>  It once was though not too terribly long ago and GWB et el would
 CH> love to see it happen anew; forcing women to return; to be put- "in
 CH> their place" as it were.

 CH> However 'staying at home' *IS* still a choice for both husband and
 CH> wife if at least one of them can bring in enough 'bacon' to support
 CH> the family comfortably. I'm not one of those women who puts down
 CH> those moms OR dads who choose to 'stay at home (my younger brother
 CH> did for a few years working at home)- and raise the kids. Somebody
 CH> has to do it. (Do we want the gummit doing it? Heck no!)

 CH> I see some companies offering daycare programs. And I see some
 CH> eager beaver couples putting off having kids until they're well off
 CH> enough so one spouse can take off a few years afford to tend the
 CH> children full time until at least school age. I know such a couple
 CH> and they have no regrets even though they're now at the age where
 CH> most of their peers are grandparents already or nearly so. Short
 CH> ramble follows.

 CH> ((I entertain the idea how maybe it's a fantabulous idea to start
 CH> having kids in your late thirties and early forties. That way by
 CH> the time the kids are teenagers you're either ready for a nursing
 CH> home or dead...You miss out on the FUN of your childrens'
 CH> Adolescence!! I'm joking here. In some respects it's better because
 CH> by then you're too mellowed out (like grandparents!) to be unduly
 CH> harsh on them...etc.)) Short ramble ends.

 JF> 'women's rights'.   Andrea Dworkin is a classic example.  Poor women
 JF> was beaten and sexually abused as a girl by her father and later was
 JF> held up as a feminist icon by the N.O.W. gang.  She regarded all
 JF> hetero' sex as rape.  Needless to say she was a lesbian, as are a
 JF> very large percentage of N.O.W. members.

 CH>  Sigh. It's just going from one extreme to another isn't it. Women
 CH> can be Chauvinists too. Men haters are no better than women haters.
 CH> Same batch of dysfunctional behaviors.


 JF>       "I never met a man who wasn't stupider than me".
 JF>                                                  A. Dworkin.
 CH>  
 JF>   Glad to see you haven't bought into that pathology.

 CH>   Nah. I see it loud and clear. You know all the jokes about
 CH> women's shopping habits? :) Well men can be the exact same way.
 CH> Depends on what they're shopping for. I'll never go with my hubby
 CH> to the golf store again. Mamma mea. I've always said most human
 CH> behaviors are universal and that includes both genders as well as
 CH> race/creed and all that. ((Note I said 'most' just in case anybody
 CH> wants to remind me about there being no such thing as absolutes. :)
 CH> ))

JF>   Gotta wonder who the bird-brain was that
JF>   came up with the idea to set themselves up as sitting ducks.

CH>   Good question. A man? Missionaries?

 CH> (re reply : I acknowledge this is a snide remark.)

JF>   Don't know of any men who would recommend that a bunch of
JF>   women go  out and set up a village in the middle of Africa
JF>   all by themselves.

 CH>  (re reply: maybe a bunch of men go out and set up a village in th
 CH> middle of ....Utah?... Hey it's been done. I recall that polygamy
 CH> cult who toss the son out so as not to compete for wives? What was
 CH> that? Mormons? Male dominance sort of thing. And are not most oh
 CH> better not go there- hmmm there are a LOT of male dominance group
 CH> ps not allowing women yes no? The BSA comes to mind.

 CH> ........................

CH>  Why would it be bird brained to seek out justice for women?

 JF>   I wasn't referring to that, and I think you know it.  I was

 CH>  Okay. But I wasn't sure. It might well be bird brained however if
 CH> the person male or female sets out on a mission he or she is ill
 CH> prepared or ill motivated to follow through with though. I agree on
 CH> that. 

 CH> It takes guts to crack a mighty longtime unjust mold. But it takes
 CH> brains to build and maintain, the new one.

 JF> referring to the idea of an all female village in a country like
 JF> Africa where
 JF> warring tribal factions have been raping, slaughtering and pillaging
 JF> other villages for centuries.    And the men usually get slaughtered
 JF> or are sold off as slaves.  The women are often assimilated into the
 JF> conquering tribes.  I'm sure it's no picnic...but it sure beats

 CH>  This sounds so familiar. (Read the same of other tribes elsewhere
 CH> of earlier times, much much earlier times. I often wonder why
 CH> Africans and other tropical clime tribes are still so far behind on
 CH> the social evolutionary scale. I wonder John if it's because they
 CH> don't see a need for advancement which in colder climes say or
 CH> those taken over by advanced cultures- is required for adaptation
 CH> say and survival?) ..................

 JF> getting hacked to death.  I think the issue you brought up is more of
 JF> a cultural issue than it is a 'women's issue'.  Most of Africa is

 CH>  Hmm. Maybe so. A culture that will never change unless women stop
 CH> contributing to it as willing cattle. You've seen cattle?
 CH> Domesticated cattle? Grazing or being paraded through town for
 CH> show? It's sad. Ever been or seen a cattle auction? Reminds me
 CH> humans were once bought and sold that way. Oh I'm not pressing for
 CH> cattle rights. They're well, dinner. Shoes. IOW I'm all for humane
 CH> treatment of animals but again I'm not an extremist either. Don't
 CH> get me started about puppy mills. I'm tangenting terribly... but
 CH> that's how new threads are born! We'll just try to remember to edit
 CH> the subject field if that happens.


 JF> still in the dark ages and it seems that's they way they prefer it.

 CH> VERY much so. And it's up to them to come out of it when they
 CH> choose to. On their own. But no harm in cheering on any of their
 CH> efforts! 

 JF> Women are not the only victims...and I would dare say that in a
 JF> country like Africa, there are ten murdered men for every abused
 JF> abused women.

 CH>  Exactly. Men are victimized too. Seldom though do you hear in this
 CH> country anyway- about women beating up their husbands. It does
 CH> happen. 

 CH> Men being murdered though is often brought on by men resorting to
 CH> violence as a solution to their problems. Women have been known to
 CH> do the same thing.. Violence is frowned upon and for profit
 CH> unintentionaly(?) encouraged (just look at the media and tv/movies)
 CH> - SO I agree the problem isn't gender at all but rather in oh
 CH> perhaps in modern jingo: "anger management" skills.
 CH> ,........................
 CH>    
 JF> Ok, we can debate the actual numbers, but I don't think many will deny
 JF> how 'social affairs' are conducted throughout most of Africa.  And
 JF> most of the 'interference' from Western society, with all of their
 JF> 'faults' has delivered them out of this existance.

 CH>  Help from the outside only works if it's used as intended. I
 CH> recall reading a TIME mag issue where many CARE packages (medicine
 CH> and food) are stolen and sold off so weapons can be bought instead
 CH> :( ... 

 CH> Warring peoples would rather kill each other than farm and learn to
 CH> live n peace? Well .. why not let them and be done with it.
 CH> Chlorine for the gene pool.

 CH> My memory is serving up tid bits of history right now. IIRC
 CH> whenever a a colony (say British) is granted independence)- the
 CH> transition period is rocky at best and the freed people really
 CH> don't know how to handle their new found freedom. They are not
 CH> always willing to accept the responsibility freedom entails.

 CH> The new gummit may well be a Democracy at the start with the best
 CH> intentions but as well all know old ways die hard and a corrupt
 CH> capitalistic dictatorship usually results. ((I am thinking of India
 CH> at the moment and yes I know that's in Asia not Africa but it's a
 CH> good example. Africa is a whole other hornets nest.))


 CH> Cindy

 CH> ... Doctrine is the skin of truth set up and stuffed.

 CH> ___ PPoint 3.01
 CH>  - Origin: Up a palm tree (1:3613/1275.13)