mark_sobolewski{at}yahoo.com wrote:
> bluesmama wrote:
> > > > It might be more natural, but it seems more fair to me that the
> > > person
> > > > who initates the date pay, whether that is a man or a woman,
and
> > > though
> > > > it doesn't happen as often (because women have been socialized
to
> > > wait
> > > > for a man to ask
> > >
> > > This would be similar to men who are slobs and have their
> > > wives who work 50 hours a week outside of the home clean
> > > up after them argue:
> > >
> > > "Hey!  Us men have been socialized to have you gals clean up
> > > after us!  I'm a gentleman!  Burp!"
> > >
> > > In other words, it's doesn't take much
"socialization" for people
> > > to realize they enjoy being mooches, not taking emotional
> > > risks, and dropping their socks on the floor for others
> > > to clean up.   If all of your friends jumped off bridges
> > > and started smoking would you...?
> >
> > A reason is not an excuse, it's just a way to understand why people
> do
> > things the way they do. Men and women both have contradictory
social
> > expectations placed on them - and as a woman I've had to struggle
> with
> > conflicting ideas like be strong, but feminine because a man needs
to
> > feel like a man;
>
> Sometimes it's hard to be a woman...

Sure it is, probably just as often as it's hard to be a man. Though of
course I can't write from a male perspective, I'm just trying to
understand it better.

> Yes, it's the MAN'S fault that he has to "feel like a man"
> when you choose him precisely for those traits.  :-)

> > be intelligent, but not too intelligent because it
> > might be threatening; be sexy but not too sexy because then you're
> > trashy, but don't be too demure because then you're a frigid
> librarian
> > type, and so on. Similar to the codes men struggle with, or at
least
> > that seems to be accurate from the reading I've been doing - those
> > restrictive masculine and feminine "codes" society imposes.
>
> Yes, it's so hard for women who want to have it all to
> make those things work because "society" tells them.
> For example, I want lots of money but to not work very
> hard because "society" creates those expectations in me.

Isn't it just human nature to want a full, fulfilling life and to
develop all aspects (whether they be stereotypically masculine or
feminine) of your self? I'm not whining about how hard it is to be a
woman, it's hard just to be human...all I'm commenting on is that there
are societal pressures on both men and women to think and act in
certain ways.

> There are plenty of men around who aren't threatened whatsoever
> by strong women.  But then again, those guys are not going
> to be swimming through moats to rescue "liberated" women.

"Strong" doesn't have to mean completely independent; interdependence
is so much more satisfying.

> > Excuse me, I've got to go have a smoke before I jump off that
bridge.
> > ;-)
>
> Forget the smokes and bridges.  Let's look instead at the single
> struggling mothers with bastard babies, aging spinsters on prozac,
> women who are stressed from working a full time job and
> managing a household, dealing with their weight problems
> from eating at restaurants, etc.
>
> It's not society or men who force fed these women their problems,
> it's all the choices feminists insisted upon women having.
> You got the vote and you couldn't make up your mind.
> It's as simple as that.  You "struggle" with your own
> indecisiveness.

Oh, it's those evil feminists again. No, I don't struggle with my own
indecisiveness, I struggle to attain some kind of balance. Most women I
know don't think in an "either-or" way, although most men I know have a
tendency to do so.

> Pardon me, I'm now thirsty because I didn't get up to grab
> a drink because I was writing to you.  That's YOUR fault!

You can imagine how overcome with guilt and remorse I am at this moment.



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