Quotes are taken from a message written by Michael to Charles on 08/12/96...
MM>Read Howard Zinn, A People's History of the United States.  It gives
MM>a lot of examples, starting from 1492.
I do not mean to be rude, but we are filling volumes in this echo with 
discussions that are roughly equivalent to that of a parent and a child 
who has discovered the phrase, "What if..."
I really don't want to read Zinn.  My basic argument with you has been 
that Illich's ideas are very interesting, but there is simply no model 
for the society that he claims would make the world better.  Throughout 
history, as nations have developed and increased the technology used in 
their industries, they have found that a formal educational system has 
been necessary in order for citizens to fit in - societies simply can't 
wait for their citizens to decide what they want to do when they are 18, 
the training must begin earlier in life or the people, the country, will 
be left behind.
You point to fringe cultures in third world nations as your models, but 
I am not aware of any, and if there are some, they are not as 
technologically advanced as the major players (U.S., France, Germany, 
etc.).  You also point to cultures dating back to 1492 - but, again, 
they were not as technologically advanced as the U.S. in 1996 - if we 
were still teaching what they taught, we would be one of those "fringe 
cultures" you mentioned elsewhere.
There have been attempts to build schools that allow students to pick 
their course of study, be it archery, blacksmithing, or computers 
(Sudbury was mentioned as one, The Harradd Experiment was a 1960's movie 
about another) - but they have not caught on.  If they worked, there 
would be many more of them.
The system you describe simply won't work - it attempts to define the 
human spirit as something that is consistent in everyone - that everyone 
will want to learn something that is useful and that everyone can be 
trusted.  The arguments you present, as far as I am concerned, are 
simply preposterous - that someone without a license should be allowed 
to venture into a university to teach, or walk into a hospital to 
perform surgery.  I don't want to live in that world.
And, on that note, you will forgive me, I hope, for closing out my part 
in this discussion.  No one is convincing anyone and I am losing 
interest in the debate.
MM>I think so.  I see no need for fancy cars, new body oils, new improved
MM>programming on TV, or virtually any new product.  We've already conquered
MM>infectious diseases with very simple antibiotics.  Now it would only take
MM>a fraction of the money we spend on cancer research to wipe out infectious
MM>disease around the world including third-world countries.  We've already
MM>developed very useful tools that help us shape our environments -- 
ulleys,
MM>levers, motors, etc..  There's no need to continually upgrade this stuff,
MM>at least until we can first make it available to suit people's basic
MM>needs in assisting their daily tasks world-wide.
And, if you are truly committed to your cause, you will give it all up.  
I'll know that you've found your nirvana when I don't see you writing in 
this echo anymore, for you will have forsaken your computer, given away 
your car, and moved into the hills in a shack adjacent to Theodore 
Koziniski(sp?).
Chuck Beams
Fidonet - 1:2608/70
cbeams@future.dreamscape.com
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* UniQWK #5290* I appoint you ambassador to Fantasy Island!!!
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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