Quotes are taken from a message written by Steve to Charles on 08/10/96...
SA>The larger question should be, how many students retain ANYTHING of their 
k-
SA>12 foreign language.
I can only speak from experience, as I don't know of any studies 
regarding this issue.  I took 3 years of French in high school (30+ years 
ago) and still occasionally toss a few phrases at the students in my 
classes who are taking French.
SA>It is something for which most have 
SA>NO application therefore they lose it and all that time is 
SA>wasted.
I do believe that the general argument in favor of foreign language is 
that, in addition to providing our kids with an important sense of a 
multi-cultural world, they help students develop a better sense of their 
own language.  It's not so much that they know French, but that they get 
a better sense of language structure.
SA>Computer Programming is a language in every sense 
SA>of the word, it is even cultural.
I think you're better off arguing in favor of computer languages because 
of the reasoning skills they develop - I don't think studying BASIC 
would do nearly as much for a child's language development as studying 
ench.
SA>Colleges usually start from scratch any way but they continue to 
SA>require foreign language as a high school requirement, what a waste.
Considering that many important universities, such as Harvard, Yale, 
Princeton, Cornell, etc., require incoming students to have had a 
foreign language in high school, but few require programming experience, 
have you thought that perhaps you are overlooking something?
SA>But the bias is there, and more so in the teaching public. 
SA>The bias is ignorance. 
You continue to pursue the debate tactic of discrediting your 
adversaries in an attempt to convince me (and other readers here, I'm 
sure) that your views are correct.  I can assure you that I am quite 
knowledgeable about computers and education both, yet I disagree with 
you.  It is neither bias nor ignorance, but expertise.
SA>Programming can be taught as low a level as a student can think logically.
SA>First grade!  Give them the tolls and they will show you 
SA>what they can do.  Not all students can create with paper, 
SA>clue & glitter.  Many want to turn out useful pieces of 
SA>work. Most students are very fustrated with the 
SA>refrigerator art they are required to make.
Interesting.  I assume you understand the general principal behind all of 
that 
"refrigerator art?"  Young children gradually progress from gross-motor 
skills to fine-motor skills during that period in their life.  Having 
hands-on activities so as to provide for the development of those 
fine-motor skills has always been viewed as important, not whether or 
not the kids are producing real works of art.  I doubt that many will 
get excused in order to work on computer programming.
SA>Emotionally or passionatly?
There's a difference?
SA>I see this field being treated as a course on plumbing.  A valuable 
SA>education but for the few.
Yep.  Not everyone can learn every skill, so we teach those skills that 
seem to have the broadest application and allow the individuals to 
select things they would like to master through advanced education and 
apprenticeships.
SA>Many schools place all the computers on one room, then 
SA>place all of the facing the wall.
You say this as if from a non-teaching perspective.  Can I assume you 
don't teach children?
We don't have a computer for every child in our school.  We will have 
one computer per classroom this year, so, for those teachers who wish to 
use the computers with an entire class, we're building a second lab of 
thirty PC's.  We're not building the labs so as to create a clinical 
atmosphere, as I think you are intimating, but for practical reasons.
The computers in the labs are turned, as much as possible, with their 
backs to the walls so that the teachers and assistants in the labs can 
observe the children working.  We want to know when the kids have put 
their work aside and have picked up on a game of Solitaire, or when they 
need some help.
SA>My whole point, programming immediately goes beyong the end-user 
restriction.
And my whole point is that we don't have the time to turn all of our 
students into "master" programmers.  Choices have to be made and, for 
most of us in the trade, programming is a skill that is too specific to 
spend so much time on.
SA>"Knit 2, purl 2"  is an operation that is repeated and 
SA>gives you the ribbing stitch at the bottom of a sweater.
Sounds more like the running of an application rather than the 
programming of an application.  My understanding of the programming 
process is that it sets the instructions for the process, like creating 
the design for an object to be knitted, rather than the knitting itself.
Chuck Beams
Fidonet - 1:2608/70
cbeams@future.dreamscape.com
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* UniQWK #5290* I feel much better now that I've given up all hope.
--- Maximus 2.01wb
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