-=> Quoting Dennis Martin to Jim Casto <=-
 DM> Have you seen any literature on what life was like prior to the coming
 DM> of the  europeans, (traders, explorers, etc.)?  Paul Wallace's book
 DM> takes the issue  from the founding of the Five Nations (Haudenosaunee)
 DM> Confederacy  approximately 1250 A.D. forward.
 That would sound like a very narrow focus that is outside my area (the PNW)
 of interest. Are you talking about a book titled: "White Roots of Peace: The
 Iroquois" by Paul Wallace?
 DM> Remember, european influences (diseases, and trade/value economics, 
tc.)
 DM> began around the turn of the century (1500) and  spread through the
 DM> native nations like wildfire.  Imagine the damage done by  disease alone
 I don't have to "imagine".  That's _exactly_ the time frame and topic
 of the "Comparative World History" class I'm currently taking. The textbook
 for some of the subjects you're talking about is: "The Columbian Exchange:
 Biological and Cultural Consequences of 1492" by Alfred W. Crosby. Jr.
 Crosby is a biological historian. Our first paper is a book review of his
 book. Due on Tuesday, April 8.
 DM> In fact, if I recall correctly, anyone group who showed an interest in
 DM> joining the Confederacy and living by their rules, was welcome to join,
 DM> as the  Tuscarora did approximately 1600.  
 
 But as you say, as long as the group wanting to join wanted to live by the
 rules of the Confederation. And if they didn't want to live by the rules (or
 join the Confederation), then what? Here's an example of the kinds of issues
 White addresses:
 At the signing of the Treaty of Fort Stanwix did the Confederation "sign 
over"
 territory that really "belonged" to the Shawnee? (Somewhere I have a copy of
 that treaty, I think.)
 DM> The time span you are referring to though was a time of radical change
 DM> throughout much of the Eastern US, so how could the Native Peoples
 DM> have  avoided being caught up in it, especially when their lands were
 DM> the basis for  most of the conflict?
 
 They couldn't have avoided being caught up. But the issues White addresses
 in "The Middle Ground" is _how_ the Native Americans dealt with issues.
 (Think "compromise" or "making the best of a bad situation" when thinking
 "middle ground". White isn't referring to geography.) In some cases, the
 Native Americans did what they thought best under the circumstances at the
 time.
 Are you familiar with the term/name "Ontonio"? (French governor as "father
 figure")
 
 DM> to  outgrow it's ability to prosper in about 600 years or so.  Look
 DM> back at the  Romans, the Ancient Egyptins, the Mayan, Incan, and even
 DM> the Chinese  dynasties.
 
 My alternate History field is Asian History. 
 DM> In smaller groupings however, secular types of civilizations tend to
 DM> grow and  according the the food availability.  The Hopi and Puebloan
 DM> peoples have lived their way for over 700 years with little outside
 DM> influence.   
 
 Hmmm... I would say the Spanish presence after about 1500 was a LOT of
 outside influence.
 DM> Cooperation seems to be the key, and greed and arrogance are the welds
 DM> which  seem to fuse the locks and keep the keys from working.  
 
 I agree. However, at some point "greed and arrogance" always seem to rear
 their ugly heads in almost all cultures. Would exploitation of fur-bearing
 animals to obtain European trade goods qualify as "greed"?
 
 DM> The "enemies of the Confederation" then faced the entire
 DM> confederation's  warriors, not just those of a member nation.  
 
 And during the time White is writing about, the Confederation's enemies
 changed. At one point in time the French might be their ally then later
 the British then during the Revolutionary War some members of the
 Confederation sided with the Colonials. French, British, Colonials... all
 Europeans. Almost all more powerful than any individual Native nation. The
 natives allied with whichever side they thought was going to "win" at any
 given point in time. What other choice did they have? There was slim chance
 they would all join together against the Europeans although several well-
 known NA leaders tried. (Pontiac, Tecumseh, etc.)
 DM> arrows.  This showed  that one alone is not as strong as many together.
 
 That is true. The question then becomes: "Why the breaking of the Covenant
 Chain and the Confederation?" (Francis Jennings has written a whole series
 of books on the Covenant Chain and the Confederation.)
 DM> Also, the time period you are talking about is at the beginning and
 DM> most  active time of interference by the europeans.  Constant battles
 DM> between the  English and the French over control of the area seperated
 DM> the people of the  region, and in the late 1700's the battle between
 DM> England and the Colonials  took over after the French influence had
 DM> weakened.   
 
 But... That's my point. There were also battles and disagreements amongst
 the Native Americans. In some cases it appears that the Europeans had little
 to do with these conflicts. And in some cases, a weaker tribe might make an
 alliance with a European power for defense against a more powerful NA foe.
 For example: If you were a small tribe and the Confederation (or Shawnee or
 ...) tried to "shove" you around and start hunting and trapping beaver in
 your territory, might you not ally yourself to the French (or British or
 Colonials)?
 Jim
--- Blue Wave v2.12
 Did anyone else receive a solicitaion in the mail for a school in
 Manderson, South Dakota called "The Wounded Knee District School"?
 The very nice poignant letter, signed by Hobart Yankton, is a plea to help
 this school.
 The problem I have with this soliciation is that if my donation is for $30
 or more, they will send me an authentic Lakota Sioux dream catcher made on
 the reservation. They enclosed a copy of the old ("Long ago when the world
 was very young...") Lakota Sioux legend of the dream catcher. (At least the
 literature doesn't claim my bad dreams will _really_ go away.)
 
 Does this sound "phony" to anyone else in this echo?
 
 I have no doubt a school on a rez in South Dakota needs help (particualrly
 when school officals _allegedly_ abscond with $2.6 million) but "selling"
 dream catchers????
 Jim
--- Blue Wave v2.12
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