-=> Quoting Dan Triplett to Michael Martinez <=-
 MM>What I mean to say, is that SHOULD be the responsiblity of parents,
 MM>not strangers.  There shouldn't be any laws interfering with that.
 DT> No matter how noble an idea that may sound, the reality is that in any
 DT> given society you will find many irresponsible parents who neglect
 DT> their  children in many ways.
Yes, so what's the point of trying to change that?  It's a time-eternal
thing.
 DT> If we  simply left things up to parents with no laws governing their
 DT> parental  responsibility children would be put at serious risk. 
No, only a small handful of children who have lousy parents.  Most parents
aren't lousy.  We're here on Earth, aren't we?  We survived tens of
thousands of years, with no laws, different laws, opposing laws, changed
laws ...
 DT> Regarding school  attendance, without laws some parents would neglect
 DT> to send their kids  to school.
That's a good thing, not a bad thing!
 MM> DT> I am sure Illich has some ideas that can benefit education.  But
 MM> DT> to  suggest the whole system be dismantled and then restructured
 MM> DT> is not  reality.
 
 MM>Actually he says there's no point in doing anything except
 MM>dismantling the entire system, and I agree with him.
 DT> It will never happen.....and I say to you that there is no point in 
 DT> dismantling the entire system.  I say to you that we have one of the 
 DT> best educational systems in the world today.
Does that mean it's good, or merely the best of something that's shoddy
to start with?
 DT> the  last year members of an American high school team in math out
 DT> scored  team members from all other countries.  We hear many bad things
 DT> about  the state that our educational system is in and how it needs
 DT> fixing.  I  think we have a very good system and it produces some of
 DT> the greatest  minds on this planet.
 
Every country produces some of the greatest talent on the planet.  
Ramanijuan was born in obscurity in a village in India.  Gabriel-Marquex
was born in Columbia. Mafouz in Egypt.  You know ... 
 MM>Naturally.  In fact, it doesn't allow for any of the changes that
 MM>Ilich or you or I would propose.
 DT> Then it doesn't make sense to argue these points in favor of a system 
 DT> (Illich's) that could never materialize.  
 
I think it can materialize. 
 MM> DT> So to  suggest otherwise is a waste of time.
 
 MM>If you see a drowning person are you going to ignore him because it's
 MM>fate for him to be in there drowning?  Yeah going against the system
 MM>is formidable.  But it's worse to sit around doing nothing, cuz then
 MM>you're an accomplice in the atrocities.
 DT> I don't think the analogy fits.  I don't agree with you that our 
 DT> educational system is drowning...nor is it treading water.  Rather it
 DT> is  swimming well....like the ladies of the US team did in the Olympics
 DT> leaving the other countries behind in their wake.
Then that's why you need to read Illich.  REad _Deschooling Society_
and "In Lieu of Education".
 DT> I'm a trench worker Michael.  I am on the front lines.  Noam Chompsky,
 DT> Illich and others may have some things to say, good or bad, regarding 
 DT> education in America and where it is today. Meanwhile I have 25 
 DT> energetic little 5 year olds who want to paint and draw flowers and 
 DT> build towers and go pee.  My focus is on how I can provide the best 
 DT> educational experience for the ones in my care.  When someone comes on
 DT> the educational scene (as Illich has and countless others before him
 DT> and  countless others after him) with ideas that will "fix" all our 
 DT> educational woes my reaction is "here we go again" and "I wonder what
 DT> we  should make in art tomorrow?"       
Illich is a teacher, too, Dan.  He teaches language in Cuernavaca, he
runs learning projects, he's a professor at different colleges.  Instead
of dismissing him offhand, you should _read_ him and then decide if you
want to dismiss him.
-michael
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.30 [NR]
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