From: "Rich" 

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   Feel free to jerk around your customers if you wish.  Despite your =
desire to do so, the users themselves don't like this and don't care why =
you think it should not work.

Rich

  "Geo"  wrote in message
news:449c941f{at}w3.nls.net...
  It's really simple to do, you just put a "strict" meter on IE so that =
users can set it to very strict, pretty strict, somewhat strict, fuckit =
make it work. And then set pretty strict as the default. Now let the =
websites explain to users they have to set it to the fuckit setting.=20

  Geo.
    "Rich"  wrote in message news:449993de{at}w3.nls.net...
       Users can't see why something doesn't work but do see that it =
doesn't.  If you want clients to enforce the types returned by the = sittes
you should start by getting sites to return correct info.  You = could do
this on your own.  Write or grab a crawler and start crawling = the
internet.  Send email to the webmasters for any sites with mistakes. =
 Good luck.

    Rich

      "Geo"  wrote in message =
news:449764b9{at}w3.nls.net...
      Rich,

      I didn't say there weren't a dozen different excuses for why =
things are the way they are now.  I just think it's wrong to perpetuate =
the mistakes by supporting what is obviously the wrong way to do things. =
Look at how much lame hardware NT cleaned up. That's because it didn't =
allow the level of "cheating" that DOS and Win9x did, it enforced
the = rules better and we are better off now.

      Same thing should happen with all the other cases where past =
mistakes have created a situation that the computer must guess. Break = the
damn websites that aren't working right, enforce strict file types = for
text files. Stop accepting the excuses that it MUST guess to be =
compatible and enforce some rules.

      Things have a habit of getting real complicated all by themselves, =
we don't need to be helping confusion get a grip on our computer =
environments. Just because some programmer decided he CAN divide by zero =
doesn't mean every programmer should now support that till the end of =
time.

      Geo.
        "Rich"  wrote in message news:449720d7{at}w3.nls.net...
           Two different issues.  IE has to apply heuristics to file =
types because the servers that return this content often return bogus, =
both incorrect or invalid, types.  It's not easy to fix.  IE had to do =
this because netscape didn't enforce types and to be compatible IE =
couldn't either.  Because the types aren't enforced lots of servers = still
do this wrong.  Because they do types can't be enforced.

           Text and Unicode is first a false distinction.  It's all =
text.  In the case of Notepad, you mean UTF-16 text vs. UTF-8 text vs. =
ANSI text as this is the distinction that Notepad makes on load.  Even =
that misses the complexity as what people call ANSI is actually any of = 14
distinct and incompatible ANSI encodings and is often one of many OEM =
encodings which may be distinct from any of the ANSI ones.  It is =
complicated because for many of the ANSI encodings including the one = used
in the U.S. and Western Europe, anything could be valid.  Because = of this
it is not always possible to make a distinction between UTF-16 = and ANSI
as a file could validly be either.  UTF-8 is restrictive so it = is easy to
tell if something is valid UTF-8.  That could still be a = problem as valid
UTF-8 could be valid ANSI too.  Instead some heuristics = are applied.  For
example if you see 0D 00 0A 00 then the file is = probably UTF-16 while if
you see 0D 0A it may be ANSI though U+0A0D = might be a valid Unicode
character.  I didn't look.

        Rich

          "Geo"  wrote in message =
news:449444fd$2{at}w3.nls.net...
          That's not what I meant when I said computers today guess. I =
meant how
          computers today guess at the answer when the problem doesn't =
have a unique
          solution. Example would be how IE guesses file types or how =
notepad guesses
          between text and unicode.

          Geo.

          "Antti Kurenniemi" 
wrote in =
message
          news:449392b8$1{at}w3.nls.net...
          > It was equally bad having people guess things. "I'll switch =
this dip here
          > and that there, and then those jumpers that I just dropped =
and have no
          clue
          > about where they should go... I'll just make a neat row of =
them here,
          > that'll do it". I remember a lot of hardware having huge =
manuals for just
          > configuring the stupid dip switches and whatnots, and that =
it was possible
          > to fry things by misconfiguring them. No thanks to that - =
nowadays, at
          least
          > you don't have to get your hands dirty to break your =
computer 
          >
          >
          > Antti Kurenniemi
          >
          > "Geo"  wrote in message =
news:44938e6a$2{at}w3.nls.net...
          > I kind of prefer the days when computers didn't "guess" at =
things. We used
          > to have a saying "computers don't make mistakes" but all =
that changed
          now..
          >
          > Geo.
          >   "Rich"  wrote in message
news:4493558b$1{at}w3.nls.net...
          >      You don't expect a mainframe to automatically detect =
any off the
          shelf
          > adapter that is plugged in.  The PC could go back to the =
dark ages too as
          > this is how things used to be when the PC first came to be.
          >
          >   Rich
          >
          >
          >


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   Feel free
to jerk around =
your=20
customers if you wish.  Despite your desire to do so, the users =
themselves=20
don't like this and don't care why you think it should not =
work.
 
Rich
 

  "Geo" <georger{at}nls.net>">mailto:georger{at}nls.net">georger{at}nls.net>
wrote=20
  in message news:449c941f{at}w3.nls.net...
  It's really simple to do, you just =
put a "strict"=20
  meter on IE so that users can set it to very strict, pretty strict, =
somewhat=20
  strict, fuckit make it work. And then set pretty strict as =
the=20
  default. Now let the websites explain to users they have to set it to =
the=20
  fuckit setting. 
   
  Geo.
  

    "Rich" <{at}> wrote in message news:449993de{at}w3.nls.net...
       Users
can't see why =
something=20
    doesn't work but do see that it doesn't.  If you want clients =
to=20
    enforce the types returned by the sittes you should start by getting =
sites=20
    to return correct info.  You could do this on your own.  =
Write or=20
    grab a crawler and start crawling the internet.  Send email to =
the=20
    webmasters for any sites with mistakes.  Good =
luck.
     
    Rich
     
    

      "Geo" <georger{at}nls.net>=20">mailto:georger{at}nls.net">georger{at}nls.net>=20
      wrote in message news:449764b9{at}w3.nls.net...
      Rich,
       
      I didn't say there weren't a =
dozen different=20
      excuses for why things are the way they are now.  I just =
think it's=20
      wrong to perpetuate the mistakes by supporting what is obviously =
the wrong=20
      way to do things. Look at how much lame hardware NT cleaned up. =
That's=20
      because it didn't allow the level of "cheating" that DOS and Win9x =
did, it=20
      enforced the rules better and we are better off now.
       
      Same thing should happen
with all =
the other=20
      cases where past mistakes have created a situation that the =
computer must=20
      guess. Break the damn websites that aren't working right, enforce =
strict=20
      file types for text files. Stop accepting the excuses that it MUST =
guess=20
      to be compatible and enforce some rules.
       
      Things have a habit of getting =
real=20
      complicated all by themselves, we don't need to be helping =
confusion get a=20
      grip on our computer environments. Just because some programmer =
decided he=20
      CAN divide by zero doesn't mean every programmer should now =
support that=20
      till the end of time.
       
      Geo.
      

        "Rich" <{at}> wrote in message news:449720d7{at}w3.nls.net...
          
Two different =
issues.  IE=20
        has to apply heuristics to file types because the servers that =
return=20
        this content often return bogus, both incorrect or invalid, =
types. =20
        It's not easy to fix.  IE had to do this because netscape =
didn't=20
        enforce types and to be compatible IE couldn't either.  =
Because the=20
        types aren't enforced lots of servers still do this wrong.  =
Because=20
        they do types can't be enforced.
         
          
Text and Unicode =
is first a=20
        false distinction.  It's all text.  In the case of =
Notepad,=20
        you mean UTF-16 text vs. UTF-8 text vs. ANSI text as this =
is the=20
        distinction that Notepad makes on load.  Even that misses =
the=20
        complexity as what people call ANSI is actually any of 14 =
distinct and=20
        incompatible ANSI encodings and is often one of many OEM =
encodings which=20
        may be distinct from any of the ANSI ones.  It is =
complicated=20
        because for many of the ANSI encodings including the one used in =
the=20
        U.S. and Western Europe, anything could be valid.  Because =
of this=20
        it is not always possible to make a distinction between UTF-16 =
and ANSI=20
        as a file could validly be either.  UTF-8 is restrictive so =
it is=20
        easy to tell if something is valid UTF-8.  That could still =
be a=20
        problem as valid UTF-8 could be valid ANSI too.  Instead =
some=20
        heuristics are applied.  For example if you see 0D 00 0A 00 =
then=20
        the file is probably UTF-16 while if you see 0D 0A it may be =
ANSI though=20
        U+0A0D might be a valid Unicode character.  I didn't=20
        look.
         
        Rich
         
        
          "Geo" <georger{at}nls.net>">mailto:georger{at}nls.net">georger{at}nls.net>
wrote =
in message=20
          news:449444fd$2{at}w3.nls.net...That's=20
          not what I meant when I said computers today guess. I meant=20
          howcomputers today guess at the answer when the problem =
doesn't=20
          have a uniquesolution. Example would be how IE guesses =
file types=20
          or how notepad guessesbetween text and=20
          unicode.Geo."Antti
Kurenniemi" <NOantti{at}SPAManttikPLEASE.com=">mailto:NOantti{at}SPAManttikPLEASE.com">NOantti{at}SPAManttikPLEASE.com=
>=20
          wrote in messagenews:449392b8$1{at}w3.nls.net...=
>=20
          It was equally bad having people guess things. "I'll switch =
this dip=20
          here> and that there, and then those jumpers that I =
just=20
          dropped and have noclue> about where
they should =
go... I'll=20
          just make a neat row of them here,> that'll do
it". I =
remember=20
          a lot of hardware having huge manuals for just> =
configuring the=20
          stupid dip switches and whatnots, and that it was =
possible> to=20
          fry things by misconfiguring them. No thanks to that - =
nowadays,=20
          atleast> you don't have to get your
hands dirty to =
break=20
          your computer
<g>>>>
Antti=20
          Kurenniemi>> "Geo"
<georger{at}nls.net>">mailto:georger{at}nls.net">georger{at}nls.net>
wrote =
in message=20
          news:44938e6a$2{at}w3.nls.net...=
>=20
          I kind of prefer the days when computers didn't "guess" at =
things. We=20
          used> to have a saying "computers don't
make mistakes" =
but all=20
          that changednow..>>
Geo.>   =
"Rich"=20
          <{at}> wrote in message news:4493558b$1{at}w3.nls.net...=
>     =20
          You don't expect a mainframe to automatically detect any off=20
          theshelf> adapter that is plugged
in.  The PC =
could go=20
          back to the dark ages too as> this is how things used =
to be=20
          when the PC first came to
be.>>  =20
          =
Rich>>>

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