----------
In article , "August Pamplona"
 wrote:


> In news:P6CdnWnCbd4rp2zcRVn-pQ{at}comcast.com,
> Deborah Terreson  typed:
>> ----------
>> In article , "August
Pamplona"
>>  wrote:
>>
>>
>>> In news:oqednUqVL9tK1G3cRVn-vA{at}comcast.com,
>>> Deborah Terreson  typed:
>>>> ----------
>>>> In article ,
"August Pamplona"
>>>>  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> In news:1106251758.087555.316520{at}z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com,
>>>>> ls  typed:
>>>>>> Deborah Terreson wrote:
>>>>>>> ----------
>>>>>>> In article
,
>>>>>>> Skinner1{at}hotmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This seems to be a rather un-provocative
style for conversation
>>>>>>>> so I will try another one. I find it
interesting seeing the wide
>>>>>>>> variety of responses.... now that most of
the flamers have been
>>>>>>>> weeded out.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Here is the next in the question series:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What is the biggest lie you have been told
in your life?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A doctor I went two two years ago told
me.."Your health is my
>>>>>>> responsibility!" - and the fucking cunt
DIDN'T take a work
>>>>>>> history nor inform me of the nature of the
chemicals I was
>>>>>>> exposed to and I suffered benzene poisoning as
a result of being
>>>>>>> given anaesthesia. Had I been treated as if I
was intelligent, I
>>>>>>> would have followed a detoxification protocol
that would have
>>>>>>> ameliorated 75-80% of the
>>>>>
>>>>>     Detoxification protocol?
>>>>
>>>> Uh huh. When you get a serious solvent exposure, you CAN burn it out
>>>> of your body quite quickly (housepainters do it by drinking, that is
>>>> why drunken painters are almost an unspoken proverb) by taking in
>>>
>>>     You can? Is this some sort of therapy with evidence of efficacy
>>> or is it just painter lore?
>>
>> It works. That's the problem. The only thing to cut the 'muzzy'
>> feeling after a day of painting is to drink. Unfortunately, the
>
>     I suppose that it'll make one feel drunk (not that I have much
> experience with that, but I know that this happens when one drinks a lot
> of ethanol). And then one will get a hangover (not that I have much
> experience with that, but I know that this happens after being drunk). I
> can see how one might cease to notice the 'muzzy' feeling (feel bad,
> drink, feel better). And after the hangover, it's back to work you go!

Oh Goodness no, it's not like a case of beer. Usually two or three will
suffice and if it has been a job with oils used, it's amazing, you get VERY
tipsy, then when you go to the bathroom it can sometimes smell of the paint.
God only knows what my kidneys are like. I've never drunk so much that I've
gotten a hangover after a day painting. That's unnecessary.

> Lather, rinse and repeat (and then express great surprise about the
> developing liver problems :-) )

Generally, if I have worked with something like Rexthane, which has
Hexamethylene diisocyanate PEL limits of 15 parts per *billion* (this is a
vapor density at these weights and it goes through the skin - I DO use a
respirator, believe me), I will be lightheaded and disconnected for days
afterwards. Several beers, or some wine followed by lots of tea or juices
will cut that down to one evening. That was quite the suprise to me.
>
>> alcohol combines with the solvents and as they are going through the
>> liver they cause horrible damage.
>
>     It _might_ compete with some pathway in the liver necessary for the
> processing of one or another solvent. If so, it would seem to be
> counterproductive to take alcohol.

For the health of the liver, yes. This is why the milk thistle is so
important. Long term exposures to the solvents do cause brain damage -
there's the other side of the coin.. I went through 9 months in a
ketosis-like state, with shaking, intemperate moods, joint bruising and
petachea all over my body (which was the hematological effects of the
benzene in action). The not sleeping was the worst part. It was like getting
stoned without smoking pot, though it was not at all fun. I should have gone
on a minor bender for a few weeks and then followed up with the high liquids
intake to pass as much out as possible. I didn't know something was up until
the 'high' from the anaesthesia didn't wear off after 12 weeks. By then it
was too late. I went ballistic on the MD's ass when I holmsed out the
chemicals administered. I was in screaming psycho bitch mode and couldn't
have given a damn what that bimbo thought of me by then. She was just lazy
and careless and I paid the price.
>
>>                                   Hence I take the milk thistle. The
>
>     Better yet, do a better job of controlling solvent exposure at the
> source in the workplace. But, of course, industry will say that's too
> expensive, will make U.S. industry uncompetitive, etc..

Yup. Too often it's fly-by-night contractors hiring out the 'day labor' that
are the problems. I had a kid help me last week, he had spent 8 months
working for a firm that was building spec houses in a huge development -
they had him running a spray rig, and NOT wearing any more protection than a
cheap particulate dust mask. Poor guy didn't have a clue how dangerous that
kind of work was without a respirator.
>
>> paint industry has dodged a huge liability bullet in that the bulk of
>> painters who've died from the liver and kidney problems that vex the
>> trade were for the most part ALSO alcoholics. The blame then falls to
>> the drinking, and NOT the chemical exposure. If you study the MSDS's
>
>     I very much doubt that the chemical exposure would be harmless even
> on it's own.

It isn't, but 99% of MD's do NOT take the chemicals into account when
treating these problems, because if there IS alcohol involved, they will
assume the damage is from that and go no further.
>
>> of most of the manufacturers, you'll see that they have been
>> reformulating for years, to try to quietly change the toxicity. Today
>> most people do not even realize that 'water clean-up' latex paint is
>> in actuality petrochemical based  - latex is now synthesized from
>> oil, not rubber trees. This is how they have increased the durability
>> of latexes and why it has come down in price since the early 90's.
>
>     This is news to me. I would have assumed that all of these latex
> paints would have been synthetic for decades (but I'm not in the
> painting trade so that explains my ignorance).
>
They were blends of acrylics and for years - the cheaper ones used natural
latex - that was why for so long so many latexes were considered inferior to
oils. Some of the real budget stuff was dreadful - lousy coverage and poor
durability and if you cleaned the brushes with water too warm, some turned
to 'paint snot' instead of rinsing out - that was pretty much the end of
your brush. Gaah! The best paints now are pure vinyl acrylic, though they
are still working out the chemistry - the water drys and sets the film, but
it still has to cure and as it dries it gives off gasses. That drying latex
stink is not healthy and many a paint job in a closed house in winter will
leave quite a buzz after it. Alot of the toxicity is also from the colorants
- methylene glycol is used in those - and it can be quite nasty in high
pigment, deep colors. Even some of the tints themselves are toxic - carbon
black is quite dangerous. If you notice when a paint manufacturer comes out
with a new paint color palette and changes bases, it's usually due to a
latex reformulation that requires a pigment adjustment. What gets lost, is
that in spite of the advertising showing a happy housemom picking up a can
of latex paint, there is still that warning label on the back - 'Delayed
effects from long term overexposure..'

>>> Ethanol can actually be helpful with methanol
>>> poisoning, supposedly. It acts by saturating alcohol dehydrogenase
>>> (is that the right enzyme?) and thus decreasing the rate of
>>> formaldehyde (which is what does the worst damage in cases of
>>> methanol exposure) formation to something a bit more manageable. I
>>> can't see how the consumption of methanol would make the body
"burn"
>>> anything. Could you elucidate a possible mechanism?
>>
>> When alcohol is metabolized, the liver starts by removing the water
>> which leaves acetone, which is a solvent that is passed quickly out
>
>     Err, not quite. I may not know my organic chemistry but I'm somewhat
> of a science geek who can usually remember enough biochemistry to get by
> (well, that and Google). See the first hit kicked up by Google on
> searching for "ethanol metabolism":
> http://www.medicouncilalcol.demon.co.uk/handbook/hb_meta.htm (top of the
> page, Figure 2:1 and associated text). As you can see ethanol is
> metabolized to acetaldehyde by three different pathways (above, because
> I was going from memory and because it's the only one that was covered
> in any class that I've had, I only mentioned the alcohol dehydrogenase
> pathway) and then it just goes on to acetate. Actually, I think a small
> amount of the metabolism also occurs in the GI tract (maybe some other
> alcohol dehydrogenase, maybe in the small intestine) but they don't
> mention it because they seem to be focusing only on the liver.
>
>> of the body - got nail polish remover? That's acetone - a world class
>> solvent.
>
>     Here's where the acetone comes in. If you look at the URL I gave
> above and scroll all the way to the bottom of the page, you will fing
> the following sentence on the last paragraph: "The oxidation of ethanol
> generates an excess of hydrogen equivalents in the liver, primarily as
> NADH." (which, of course, means a shortage of NAD+). What this means is
> that, particularly with heavy drinking, all of the alcohol cannot be
> processed by the normal pathway of acetate which would be to to go and
> become Acetyl CoA and feed into the Krebs cycle (the Kreb's cycle uses
> up NAD+ and generates yet _more_ NADH). So instead of feeding into the
> Krebs cycle, the Acetyl CoA is diverted to form ketone bodies (see the
> chart at the web page referencedby the URL,
> http://www.biocarta.com/pathfiles/ketonebodiesPathway.asp --notice how
> the process regenerates NAD+ which is just what we need). Basically,
> these ketone bodies strongly resemble some industrial solvents (and
> indeed, one of the ketone bodies _is_ the acetone that you
> mentioned --derived from decarboxylating acetoacetate).

Heavy drinking over an extended time is not a solution. If you DO drink
moderate amounts *right* after an exposure, it ameliorates the effects.
There is still the necessity of drinking alot of teas and liquids in
general. I didn't know that I was getting a solvent exposure like I did and
didn't get a chance to modify my diet accordingly.
>
>     Whether the acetone can drag other industrial solvents out with it
> in one's breath I do no know (though, frankly, I doubt it).

Oop. Not in the breath, in the urine. My bad there, I was using the
incorrect language.

> If this were
> the case (which, like I wrote, I very much doubt), you should be able to
> achieve the same "detoxification" effect by putting yourself on a
> ketogenic diet (that is a diet that restricts your carbohydrate intake
> to almost zero --such as Atkins, etc.). You could probably add
> carbohydrates during the weekends or whenever your solvent exposure was
> the lowest (making this into a cyclic ketogenic diet) so as to not keep
> yourself in ketosis indefinitely.

Oh dear God, no. Ketosis is NOT fun when one is already high strung from the
benzene exposure. I ended up twitchy, tempermental and nearly psychotic.

> I would assume (IOW, I'm pulling this
> out of my ass and I might be wrong) that this would produce lower ketone
> body levels than when drinking yourself into unconsciousness but the
> fact that you would be chronically ketotic shoud probably more than make
> up for that. There would be some concern about mental acuity on the job
> as people seem to have trouble functioning without carbohydrates but,
> aparently, people get used to this after being on ketogenic diets for a
> while.

In normal circumstances it might be okay. I tried like hell to keep my
weight up as I was sick, but I lost weight, and the added ketones coupled
with the mesitylene doing it's breakdown as the fat was burned - it was
horrid. Pure chemical hell.
>
>     Of course, I don't really think that it would really work since you
> haven't convinced me yet that having high levels of ketone bodies in
> your blood will clear out any of your solvent exposure.

I can't explain how it works, but it does. The trick is NOT to drink
continually, but to split the amount with water, teas.
>
>>          If you look at the production process for making mesitylene,
>> acetone is one of the key ingredients, and it binds to it and is
>> passed out.
>
>     Your apparent reasoning (you are probably just intending that
> comment as a side note but it almost seems like you are implying that
> one somehow implies the other) is sympathetic magic. Acetone probably
> dissolves mesitylene quite well simply because it's a good solvent of
> many polar and non-polar substances (like you wrote, "a world class
> solvent"). That you can make one from the other has nothing to do with
> it (or else glycerol would be highly soluble in food oils because you
> can make it from them).

I've yet to find a single VOC-based paint/urethane/stripper/degreaser
product that it will not dissolve. Even the moisture cured urethanes can be
thinned with acetone  - you wouldn't think that, but it is so.
>
>>>
>>>> large quantities of silymarin - found in milk thistle tea - which
>>>> has
>>>
>>>     Silymarin does supposedly have a hepatoprotective effect
>>> according to some German studies, IIRC.
>>>
>>>> protective properties that sheild the liver from fatty accumulations
>>>> related to alcohol consumption (amongst other things), and a few
>>>> bottles of Everclear (190 proof alcohol) and gallons of orange
>>>> juice. If you are NOT a big beer or booze drinker (I've seen too
>>>> many painter friends die from liver and kidney failure from the
>>>> solvents and alcohol so I know better than to drink much) and your
>>>> liver is otherwise healthy, you can expedite these substances out
>>>> that way - BUT - you have to know to do it as soon as an exposure
>>>> occurs. If you wait and the oxidization begins, the chemical chain
>>>> reaction starts and it's too late.
>>>>
>>>> It's a Nantucket Sleighride from Hell, then. Mine lasted 9 months -
>>>> complete with amenorrhea from the estrogen supression due to the
>>>> benzene.
>>>
>>>     Benzene does this? I've found references on Medline hormonal
>>> influences of benzene but none that even had an abstract that I could
>>> read from the comfort of my own home (besides being unavailable, they
>>> seemed to be in French or Japanese so I don't even know what they
>>> were all about --but it was a very quick search).
>>
>> Benzene has been shown to cause ovaries to shrink in size and of
>> course reduce estrogen in animals. The data you USED to be able to
>> find quite easily on OSHA pages, but as the Bush administration has
>> slackened up on the environmental laws and allowed the chemical
>> industry to get away with more and more, the information is
>> disappearing from online.
>
> It's all done for your own good. Would you really want this
> information to fall into the hands of terrorists? And you probably call
> yourself an American. What a shame!

*LOL* Oh no! Call me unpatriotic!! Damn, there goes my day.

Deb.


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