Not content to enjoy the fruits of the obscurity to which he is so
splendidly suited, Dan Triplett said Illich?  Illich who to Michael 
Martinez, adding:
MM> MM> DT> Because students, like all "children" needed to be guided by
MM> MM> DT> responsible  adults who understand that given a choice with
MM> MM> DT> no immediate consequences  many would choose not to attend
MM> MM> school. 
MM> MM>That's the responsiblity of their parents, not you Dan nor any
MM> MM>policy- maker.
MM> DT> I don't agree.  There are laws regarding attendance in school. 
MM>What I mean to say, is that SHOULD be the responsiblity of parents,
MM>not strangers.  There shouldn't be any laws interfering with that.
No matter how noble an idea that may sound, the reality is that in any 
given society you will find many irresponsible parents who neglect their 
children in many ways.  As an educator I see it all the time.  If we 
simply left things up to parents with no laws governing their parental 
responsibility children would be put at serious risk.  Regarding school 
attendance, without laws some parents would neglect to send their kids 
to school.  It's not that they would home school them, they would do 
nothing!  I have seen this.  Though I don't know offhand at what age a 
parent must send a child to school (I think 8 years old) I do know 
parents whose children have missed nearly half the school year.  Granted 
that this is a VERY small percentage.  But should it be allowed to 
happen at all?  You do realize that parental rights can be terminated by 
the courts if a pattern of abuse and neglect is determined?  I for one 
am very glad for mandatory attendance laws.    
MM> DT> I am sure Illich has some ideas that can benefit education.  But
MM> DT> to  suggest the whole system be dismantled and then restructured
MM> DT> is not  reality.
MM>Actually he says there's no point in doing anything except
MM>dismantling the entire system, and I agree with him.
It will never happen.....and I say to you that there is no point in 
dismantling the entire system.  I say to you that we have one of the 
best educational systems in the world today.  I remember that within the 
last year members of an American high school team in math out scored 
team members from all other countries.  We hear many bad things about 
the state that our educational system is in and how it needs fixing.  I 
think we have a very good system and it produces some of the greatest 
minds on this planet.
MM> DT> It would be an impossible task to start all over.
MM>I don't think so.  I think it would just fall into place.  It would
MM>have to, for society to function.  We think that school is the ONLY
MM>way to get things done.  But that's not true.  It's the only option
MM>we're given but there are others, better ones out there.
Michael, Michael, Michael, it wouldn't fall  into place.  It would fall 
apart.  Please describe a systematic dismantling and restructuring.  
MM> DT>  Changes
MM> DT> that Illich suggests could  only happen over time.  The system
MM> DT> won't allow for anything else.
MM>Naturally.  In fact, it doesn't allow for any of the changes that
MM>Ilich or you or I would propose.
Then it doesn't make sense to argue these points in favor of a system 
(Illich's) that could never materialize.  
MM> DT> So to  suggest otherwise is a waste of time.
MM>If you see a drowning person are you going to ignore him because it's
MM>fate for him to be in there drowning?  Yeah going against the system
MM>is formidable.  But it's worse to sit around doing nothing, cuz then
MM>you're an accomplice in the atrocities.
I don't think the analogy fits.  I don't agree with you that our 
educational system is drowning...nor is it treading water.  Rather it is 
swimming well....like the ladies of the US team did in the Olympics 
leaving the other countries behind in their wake.
 Illich's ideas are too radical  to have any chance
MM> DT> of serious consideration in the field of education. So for all
MM> DT> the ideas he may have, good or bad, it is like blowing into  the
MM> DT> wind.  
MM>I am a firm believer of not compromising.  When you compromise, you
MM>compromise
MM>the truth, you compromise other people and their values and their
MM>worth. Anything EXCEPT trying to impliment Illich's suggestions is
MM>doomed, under the present system, to have the opposite effect to what
MM>you intend.  He explains this very well.  They system is inherently
MM>designed that way.
Im glad you feel that way because to accept Illich's ideas would greatly 
compromise our educational system not to mention jepordize the good of 
our country. 
I'm a trench worker Michael.  I am on the front lines.  Noam Chompsky, 
Illich and others may have some things to say, good or bad, regarding 
education in America and where it is today. Meanwhile I have 25 
energetic little 5 year olds who want to paint and draw flowers and 
build towers and go pee.  My focus is on how I can provide the best 
educational experience for the ones in my care.  When someone comes on 
the educational scene (as Illich has and countless others before him and 
countless others after him) with ideas that will "fix" all our 
educational woes my reaction is "here we go again" and "I wonder what we 
should make in art tomorrow?"       
Dan Triplett
dtriplett@juno.com
CMPQwk 1.42 445p
"'Exciting' is hardly the word I would use." - C-3PO
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