Andre Lieven wrote:
> "Ben" (ArGee45{at}hotmail.com) writes:
> > Hyerdahl3 blathered:
> >> >Subject: Re: The Slattern Single Mother
> >> >From: knoxy knoxy{at}post.com
> >> >Date: 1/26/2005 12:51 AM Pacific Standard Time
> >> >Message-id: 
> >> >
> >> >In article ,
> >> >gf010w5035{at}blueyonder.co.uk says...
> >> >> http://batr.org/view/021403.html
> >> >>
> >> >I tried to read all this crap, but it almost made me >fall
asleep.
> > Why not cut
> >> it short and just say that all >single mothers are evil and
they're
> > the reason
> >> for >everything bad that's happening in the world?
> >
> > I personally wouldn't go that far.  I was raised by a
divorced/single
> > mother, and I know how difficult it can be.  She wasn't single by
> > choice, but because my father abandoned the family.
>
> Which is the minority of cases involving single mothers, and the
> minority of cases involving divorce ( See Braver ).

The time period I'm referring to for me is the late 50's/early 60's.  I
haven't read Braver so I don't know if he includes that era in his
work, but in my own personal case, what difference does it make if it
was in the minority?

>
> > Now, having said that, I can also say that single women as a group
are
> > not exactly doing a bang-up job raising their kids, especially
boys.
> > There's a whole host of issues that are found in boys raised by
single
> > women.  However, I don't attach blame to just the women.  I think
that
> > those men who abandon their families are at fault in those cases.
>
> Oh ? Did they have *any* final say over whether there would BE a
child?

Couple of things.  First, though I didn't specifically say it, I'm
referring to those cases where a man just walks away from his family
he's been with a number of years.  Seen it happen, it's kind of
irrefutable that it does.

Second, whether or not he had "final say" on if there would be a child
or not, once he walks away after establishing his paternal role, he's
damaging that child.

For example, they're unmarried, she gets pregnant when he hadn't
expected it.  She decides to keep the baby.  Assuming for this example
that the baby is his, if he decides to become an active father, then as
far as I'm concerned, he's made a commitment.  If he decides five years
down the road he doesn't like being a daddy and leaves and cuts off all
contact, I call that abandonment.

I think if a given man really doesn't want to be an active father, he
should make that decision early on.

>
> " Her body, her choice... HER *responsibility*. "
>
> > In
> > other instances, the women effectively bar the fathers from the
lives
> > of the children out of vindictiveness, spite, whatever.  And then
there
> > are those cases where both mother and father are too selfish or
> > self-absorbed to see past their own issues with each other and
> > prioritize the needs of the children.
>
> Yet, who chose for them to be, again ?

Once the parental roles are accepted and established, barring some sort
of fraud, what difference does it make?  We can debate some of the fine
points of ethics and morality here and we can be right all day long,
but in the real world with real children and real responsibilities that
go along with real choices--well, I'm sorry, but if you as a man get
past the circumstances of the pregnancy and the birth and decide you
want to be an active father, you've just accepted the responsibility
that goes with it.

You perhaps haven't read the posts, but I've pointed out repeatedly to
Hyerdahl that men who flatly walk out on their families are in the
minority.  It's my own observation that most men want to be fathers to
their children, even if they don't want anything to do with the
mothers--I believe the research bears me out on this.

I'm pretty much convinced that most of the time, if a man has
absolutely no contact with his children, it's pretty much for reasons
outside his control (no knowledge of them, he's dead, the mother told
another man he was the father, etc).

>
> Why is it OK to have Choice For Women, and NO Choice For Men, and
> then to try to equally share out the *responsibility*, when the
> *authority* is *solely with the women* ?

I'm not arguing here about choice, my comments are concerning men who
abandon their families in situations similar to the example I used
above.

>
> >> That was pretty much what was being said.  Some simply have a
vested
> > interest
> >> in blaming the mother who stays rather than the father who
abandons.
> >
> > You surely are a simplistic creature when it comes to making sure
that
> > no woman ever carries any responsibility for any action, aren't
you?
>
> Sure. But, lets not fall for any of her " traps ".
You don't read many of my exchanges with her, do you?   :)



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