Andre Lieven wrote:
> "Ben" (ArGee45{at}hotmail.com) writes:
> > Andre Lieven wrote:
> >> "Ben" (ArGee45{at}hotmail.com) writes:
> >> > Andre Lieven wrote:
> >> >> "Ben" (ArGee45{at}hotmail.com) writes:
> >> >> > Andre Lieven wrote:
> >> >> >> "Ben" (ArGee45{at}hotmail.com) writes:
> >> >> >> > Hyerdahl3 blathered:
> >> >> >> >> >Subject: Re: The Slattern Single Mother
> >> >> >> >> >From: knoxy knoxy{at}post.com
> >> >> >> >> >Date: 1/26/2005 12:51 AM
Pacific Standard Time
> >> >> >> >> >Message-id:
> > 
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >In article
,
> >> >> >> >> >gf010w5035{at}blueyonder.co.uk says...
> >> >> >> >> >> http://batr.org/view/021403.html
> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >I tried to read all this crap,
but it almost made me
>fall
> >> >> >> > asleep. Why not cut
> >> >> >> >> it short and just say that all
>single mothers are evil
and
> >> >> >> >> they're the reason
> >> >> >> >> for >everything bad that's
happening in the world?
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > I personally wouldn't go that far.  I
was raised by a
> >> >> > divorced/single
> >> >> >> > mother, and I know how difficult it
can be.  She wasn't
> > single
> >> >> >> > by choice, but because my father
abandoned the family.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Which is the minority of cases involving
single mothers, and
> > the
> >> >> >> minority of cases involving divorce ( See Braver ).
> >> >> >
> >> >> > The time period I'm referring to for me is the late
50's/early
> >> > 60's.  I
> >> >> > haven't read Braver so I don't know if he
includes that era
in
> > his
> >> >> > work, but in my own personal case, what
difference does it
make
> > if
> >> >> > it was in the minority?
> >> >>
> >> >> Because, when deciding on things such as policy, in the macro,
or
> >> >> personal beliefs, in the micro, if one uses as a
default " This
is
> >> >> the common way ", a thing that is NOT the
common way, you will
run
> >> >> afoul of GIGO: Garbage in, garbage out.
> >> >
> >> > If I was talking policy, I'd agree 100%.  My overall point was
that
> >> > single motherhood per se shouldn't be demonized because some
women
> > are
> >> > there due to circumstances beyond their control--I know it, I
lived
> > it,
> >> > but I wouldn't attempt to set public policy with just my
example.
> >>
> >> Well, the past is the past. In the present, however, any woman who
> >> chooses to become a single mother, did so while in possession of
not
> >> a few legal ways to avoid that fate.
> >
> > Except, within the context of this thread and my comments, I wasn't
> > talking about the decision to give birth.
>
> Indeed. By not addressing that salient point, your conclusions about
> why some men do not support children, are made thus, one dimensional.

To the extent that they're not meant to be all-encompassing, then they
are indeed limited--as I've said right along.  But they're not
inaccurate.  I'm not stating something that doesn't happen.


>
> >> So, if they chose it, or failed to act so as not to choose it
> >> ( Sitting still, when you have things to do, IS the choice not to
> >> do them. ), thats their responsibility.
> >
> > The man is informed he's the father, the tests establish it, he
walks
> > away.  The father is killed in a car accident.  The father is the
> > victim of a homicide.  The father is killed while serving in the
> > military.  The father suddenly realizes he really loves the
internet
> > bunny he's been chatting with for several months and moves to the
other
> > end of the country to be with her.
>
> Note that, in all the scenarios you list above, the man never gets a
> *choice to say no*...

Well, no, not in the three cases where he's killed--of course, the
other side of that point is that the mother didn't get a say either.
With the other two cases, he did indeed get a chance to say "no"...he
voted with his feet both times.  In the last example, his chance to say
no expired a long time ago and he had been filling his paternal role.

>
> As I have said, if a woman is serious about making a *family*, then
> why does she NOT memorialise the relationship, and then, create the
> child *after* getting the man's consent to that state ?

I think we'd both agree that this would be the best and fairest way.
Unfortunately, I don't see society encouraging this in any other way
than paying the occasional bit of lip service.

>
> > Any of those are reasons why a woman would suddenly find herself
> > raising her children by herself.  A couple are the man's fault, and
a
> > couple are beyond both their control.
>
> no. You make no provision for any of those men to say " No, I do NOT
> want to be a father at this time. No one asked my for MY CHOICE. "

Well, let's back up a bit here.  You seem to be limiting yourself to
the conception and birth and his ability to initially refuse to be a
father and/or pay child support, and I'm talking mostly about the
instances where a man initially accepted his paternal role and then
walked away from it.

I'm also not using those scenarios to examine whether or not the father
can refuse, but to offer how a single mother can become so due to
circumstances beyoned her control.

>
> What no man is granted authority to deline, no man need be
responsible
> for, for without authority to decline, choice becomes meaningless.
>
> > I chose those examples because I
> > know of such personally, and I don't think for a second that this
has
> > happened only with those people I know.
>
> " The plural of 'anecdote' is NOT 'citation'. "

You don't think I'm the only one who knows a man who was killed in a
car crash before his wife had their baby, do you?

>
> >> > I do
> >> > remember the stigma attached to my family and those like us,
> > because we
> >> > were "broken", and I'm simply not going to
condemn single
mothers
> > as a
> >> > group, any more than I'd condemn fathers who weren't in contact
> > with
> >> > their children as a group.
> >>
> >> OK. Thats your choice. I will hold them as responsible as their
> >> possession of rights makes them to be:
> >>
> >> 100%.
> >
> > We'll have to agree to disagree on this, for the reasons I gave
above.
>
> Then, we have to say that you apportion *rights* to women, alone,
> but duties to men, in spite of not giving them the other side of that
> coin.
>
> Thats... SEXIST.

Not if you look at why I offered them and what point I was trying to
prove.

>
> >> >> If men are not the prime destroyers of marriage and family,
then
> >> >> it is not only sexist and absurd, but Bad Policy Making, to
> >> >> behave as if they were.
> >> >
> >> > Agreed.  I have my own theories and observations regarding
what's
> >> > happened to men and families, but that's a whole 'nother thread.
> >>
> >> And, a collection of books.
> >>
> >> >> Braver does cover more recent time, but
Wallerstein's work does
go
> >> >> back some, as the title of her book makes clear that the time
> > period
> >> >> in study is at least 25 years.
> >> >>
> >> >> >> > Now, having said that, I can also say
that single women as
a
> >> >> > group are
> >> >> >> > not exactly doing a bang-up job
raising their kids,
> > especially
> >> >> > boys.
> >> >> >> > There's a whole host of issues that
are found in boys
raised
> >> >> > by single
> >> >> >> > women.  However, I don't attach blame
to just the women.
I
> >> >> >> > think that those men who abandon their
families are at
fault
> >> >> >> > in those cases.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Oh ? Did they have *any* final say over
whether there would
BE
> >> >> > a child?
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Couple of things.  First, though I didn't
specifically say
it,
> >> >> > I'm referring to those cases where a man just
walks away from
his
> >> > family
> >> >> > he's been with a number of years.  Seen it
happen, it's kind
of
> >> >> > irrefutable that it does.
> >> >>
> >> >> Sure: Just as it's irrefutable that *more* women do the same
> > thing.
> >> >
> >> > Which, of course, is why I say I won't blame one side or the
other
> >> > entirely.
> >>
> >> Why not ? Did any guy have any say ? Why would you hold people
> > granted
> >> AbZero *authority* as blameless/responsible as you hold those with
> >> 100% authority ?
> >
> > Because I don't think single mothers as a group are created solely
by
> > the woman giving birth in spite of the man's wishes.
>
> The factual basis for that claim is.... ?

Um...some of them lose their husbands?

>
> > There are a host
> > of reasons why women become single mothers.  For those instances
where
> > the woman becomes a single mother because of the father's bad
deeds,
> > then he *is* at fault.
>
> Non sequitur. How can a man make a woman have a baby that she doesn't
> want to ?

My comments are a little more inclusive than just this.  If a man
suddenly decides he wants to live with that cute little internet bunny
and leaves his wife and his three children aged 4 to 10, she's become a
single mother due to his actions.

> What *method* shall such a man use, to void her sole female
> rights ? Be specific, or withdraw this unsupported claim.

lol  I'm withdrawing nothing.  I've been pretty clear about what I
mean.

>
> > You know I loathe apologists for the bad behavior of women--I won't
> > become one for the bad behavior of men.
>
> Free Clue: Men don't give birth...

Another free clue:  Some men walk out on their wives and children.

>
> >> >> > Second, whether or not he had "final
say" on if there would
be a
> >> > >> child or not, once he walks away after establishing his
paternal
> >> >> > role, he's damaging that child.
> >> >>
> >> >> So ? If I walk away from paying you for your choice to buy a
new
> > car,
> >> >> I am " damaging " your finances, but of
what claim to my
infinite
> >> >> support do you have?
> >> >
> >> > Andre, you're not seriously going to try and compare a financial
> >> > transaction to  paternal responsibility to your child, are you?
> >>
> >> Two words " Child Support ".
> >
> > Which is separate from what I refer to when I speak of abandonment.
>
> So ? Society trumps your personal definition.

How so?  Society has two different definitions for child abandonment
and child support.

>
> >> *I* didn't make that comparison, Feminism and society has already
> >> done it. Who am I to argue with what *is* ?
> >>
> >> >> Have you considered that, not only do men leave
> >> >> families far less often than do women, women's
departures often
> > are
> >> >> lauded as being " about personal growth ",
while men are
derided
> >> >> for refusing to act as the ATM card for the little woman...
> >> >
> >> > I can consider lots of things (and again, I don't necessarily
> > disagree
> >> > with you), but my comments here concerning men who abandon are
just
> >> > that...about men who abandon.  They really are just that
limited.
> >>
> >> Well, I dare say that we have a *lot* of people speaking
critically
> >> of such few men.
> >>
> >> What we don't have much of, is people addressing the *most common
> >> situation*, which isn't at men's choices.
> >
> > We have a lot of people in here speaking critically of women who
abuse
> > the system or the men in their lives.  I'm one of them.  But fair
is
> > fair, and sometimes the man is to blame.
>
> Via what *specific* methods, that void her female only legal rights
> to decline ? Take into account that women can, *unilaterally*, adopt
> out a child, or Legally Abandon it, so that NO act of a man can MAKE
> a woman STAY a parent, is she is determined to not be one.

Which has what to do with my comments about women sometimes becoming
single mothers against their wishes?

>
> Thats not true of men, however. Men have NO post coital rights to
> void their parenthood.

True, and, in too many instances, unfair, but--again--what does this
have to do with women sometimes becoming single mothers against their
wishes?  And, what does this have to do with men leaving their
families?

>
> >> >> > For example, they're unmarried, she gets pregnant when he
hadn't
> >> >> > expected it.  She decides to keep the baby.  Assuming for
this
> >> > example
> >> >> > that the baby is his, if he decides to become an active
father,
> >> > then as
> >> >> > far as I'm concerned, he's made a commitment. 
If he decides
> >> > five years
> >> >> > down the road he doesn't like being a daddy and
leaves and
cuts
> >> >> > off all contact, I call that abandonment.
> >> >>
> >> >> Feel free to show any proof that even 10% of single mommy
> >> >> situations happen like this.
> >> >
> >> > I don't have to.  I was offering you an example of what type of
> >> > scenario *I* had in mind when I talked of abandonment.  I don't
> >> > know why you're deriving from this that I think it constitutes
> >> > one percentage or another of single mother situations.
> >>
> >> As I said, many such critiques are made, such that very many
people
> >> falsely believe that they are the common trend.
> >>
> >> In short, you're not helping...
> >
> > In the context of this thread and the limited scope of my remarks,
it's
> > not necessarily a "hurt or help" scenario.  Remember, I
started by
> > saying that I wasn't going to demonize single mothers as a group
> > because there are reasons outside their control why they might find
> > themselves in that situation.
>
> Yet, you *cannot* specify what methods would have that result.

That's not what I started out talking about, and you're avoiding what I
*am* talking about.  Do you, Andre, believe that there is NEVER a case
where a woman becomes a single parent due to circumstances beyond her
control?

>
> Thus, I have to say that that claim is feminist cowshit.

Perhaps you'll address the claim I'm actually making?

>
> >> >> OTOH, we do know, from a plethora of books on the
> >> >> topic, that it is WOMEN who, often repeatedly, make the sole

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