Andre Lieven wrote:
> "Ben" (ArGee45{at}hotmail.com) writes:
> > Andre Lieven wrote:
> >> "Ben" (ArGee45{at}hotmail.com) writes:
> >> > Andre Lieven wrote:
> >> >> "Ben" (ArGee45{at}hotmail.com) writes:
> >> >> > Andre Lieven wrote:
> >> >> >> "Ben" (ArGee45{at}hotmail.com) writes:
> >> >> >> > Andre Lieven wrote:
> >> >> >> >> "Ben"
(ArGee45{at}hotmail.com) writes:
> >> >> >> >> > Hyerdahl3 blathered:
> >> >> >> >> >> >Subject: Re: The
Slattern Single Mother
> >> >> >> >> >> >From: knoxy knoxy{at}post.com
> >> >> >> >> >> >Date: 1/26/2005 12:51
AM Pacific Standard Time
> >> >> >> >> >> >Message-id:
> >> > 
> >> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> >> >In article
,
> >> >> >> >> >>
>gf010w5035{at}blueyonder.co.uk says...
> >> >> >> >> >> >>
http://batr.org/view/021403.html
> >> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> >I tried to read all
this crap, but it almost made me
> >> >> >> >> > fall asleep. Why not cut
> >> >> >> >> >> it short and just say
that all >single mothers are
evil
> >> >> >> >> >> and they're the reason
> >> >> >> >> >> for >everything bad
that's happening in the world?
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> > I personally wouldn't go that
far.  I was raised by a
> >> >> >> > divorced/single
> >> >> >> >> > mother, and I know how
difficult it can be.  She wasn't
> >> > single
> >> >> >> >> > by choice, but because my
father abandoned the family.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> Which is the minority of cases
involving single mothers,
and
> >> >> >> >> the minority of cases involving
divorce ( See Braver ).
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > The time period I'm referring to for
me is the late
> >> >> >> > 50's/early 60's.  I haven't
> >> >> >> > read Braver so I don't know if he
includes that era in his
> >> >> >> > work, but in my own personal case,
what difference does it
> >> >> >> > make if it was in the minority?
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Because, when deciding on things such as
policy, in the
macro,
> >> >> >> or personal beliefs, in the micro, if one
uses as a default
"
> >> >> >> This is the common way ", a thing that
is NOT the common
way,
> >> >> >> you will run afoul of GIGO: Garbage in, garbage out.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > If I was talking policy, I'd agree 100%.  My
overall point
was
> >> >> > that single motherhood per se shouldn't be
demonized because
> >> >> > some women are there due to circumstances beyond their
> >> >> > control--I know it, I lived it, but I wouldn't
> >> >> > attempt to set public policy with just my example.
> >> >>
> >> >> Well, the past is the past. In the present, however, any woman
who
> >> >> chooses to become a single mother, did so while in possession
of
> >> >> not a few legal ways to avoid that fate.
> >> >
> >> > Except, within the context of this thread and my comments, I
wasn't
> >> > talking about the decision to give birth.
> >>
> >> Indeed. By not addressing that salient point, your conclusions
about
> >> why some men do not support children, are made thus, one
dimensional.
> >
> > To the extent that they're not meant to be all-encompassing, then
they
> > are indeed limited--as I've said right along.  But they're not
> > inaccurate.  I'm not stating something that doesn't happen.
>
> OK. Yet, you stating what happenes *least*.
>
> Good policy is made by examining what happens... most.

I'm not making policy, remember?  I'm giving examples of how women can
become single mothers against their wishes.  I've still not seen you
refute that.

>
> >> >> So, if they chose it, or failed to act so as not to choose it
> >> >> ( Sitting still, when you have things to do, IS the choice not
to
> >> >> do them. ), thats their responsibility.
> >> >
> >> > The man is informed he's the father, the tests establish it, he
> > walks
> >> > away.  The father is killed in a car accident.  The father is
the
> >> > victim of a homicide.  The father is killed while serving in the
> >> > military.  The father suddenly realizes he really loves the
> >> > internet bunny he's been chatting with for several months and
> >> > moves to the other end of the country to be with her.
> >>
> >> Note that, in all the scenarios you list above, the man never gets
a
> >> *choice to say no*...
> >
> > Well, no, not in the three cases where he's killed--of course, the
> > other side of that point is that the mother didn't get a say
either.
>
> Yet, in those cases, its hard to avoid the conclusion that he, the
> dead guy, is the hardest affected.

Which has what to do with this being an example of how a woman becomes
a single mother due to circumstances beyond her control?

>
> > With the other two cases, he did indeed get a chance to say
"no"...he
> > voted with his feet both times.
>
> Yet, thats " vote " is often overridden by Child Support. Thus, its
> a " vote " of little meaning.

Which has what to do with this being an example of how a woman becomes
a single mother due to circumstances beyond her control?

>
> > In the last example, his chance to say
> > no expired a long time ago and he had been filling his paternal
role.
>
> And, as I said, these examples are not statisticaly valid.

They're certainly "valid" in that they do happen, and they're an
example of how a woman can become a single mother against her wishes.

>
> >> As I have said, if a woman is serious about making a *family*,
then
> >> why does she NOT memorialise the relationship, and then, create
the
> >> child *after* getting the man's consent to that state ?
> >
> > I think we'd both agree that this would be the best and fairest
way.
>
> And, the only rightful way to, equally, emplace the responsibilities
> of chosen parenthood. Any other regime is unfair, and sexist. As
such,
> I have no issue with men acting to escape that sexist biased system.
>
> > Unfortunately, I don't see society encouraging this in any other
way
> > than paying the occasional bit of lip service.
>
> Then, lets not help those who are bigoted against men, any more...

Let's not help those bigoted against women who find themselves single
mothers due to circumstances beyond their control, either.

>
> >> > Any of those are reasons why a woman would suddenly find herself
> >> > raising her children by herself.  A couple are the man's fault,
and
> >> > a couple are beyond both their control.
> >>
> >> no. You make no provision for any of those men to say " No, I do
NOT
> >> want to be a father at this time. No one asked my for MY CHOICE. "
> >
> > Well, let's back up a bit here.  You seem to be limiting yourself
to
> > the conception and birth and his ability to initially refuse to be
a
> > father and/or pay child support, and I'm talking mostly about the
> > instances where a man initially accepted his paternal role and then
> > walked away from it.
>
> You mean, like women who initially accept parenthood, then use
> Unliateral Legal Adopting Out laws to change their minds ?

Are you under the impression I think they're any better?

>
> > I'm also not using those scenarios to examine whether or not the
father
> > can refuse, but to offer how a single mother can become so due to
> > circumstances beyoned her control.
>
> And, you're in error.

Ah, so you're claiming those situations *don't* occur, then?

> If a woman has NOT, *first*, acquired the
> informed consent of a guy to be in a relationship in her, *and*
> for them both to become parents, then no woman has a moral claim
> on his resources wrt parenting or the relationship.

Agreed, but what does this have to do with what I'm establishing?

>
> We used to have a basic and clear way of expressing this *mutual*
> intent: marriage.
>
> >> What no man is granted authority to deline, no man need be
> > responsible
> >> for, for without authority to decline, choice becomes meaningless.
> >>
> >> > I chose those examples because I
> >> > know of such personally, and I don't think for a second that
this
> >> > has happened only with those people I know.
> >>
> >> " The plural of 'anecdote' is NOT 'citation'. "
> >
> > You don't think I'm the only one who knows a man who was killed in
a
> > car crash before his wife had their baby, do you?
>
> I do think that such cases are statistically insignificant.

They don't have to be commonplace to prove my point.  You do remember
that this whole thing started out when I said not all single mothers
are single by choice.

>
> >> >> > I do remember the stigma attached to my family
and those like
> >> >> > us, because we were "broken", and I'm
simply not going to
> >> >> > condemn single mothers as a
> >> >> > group, any more than I'd condemn fathers who weren't in
contact
> >> >> > with their children as a group.
> >> >>
> >> >> OK. Thats your choice. I will hold them as
responsible as their
> >> >> possession of rights makes them to be:
> >> >>
> >> >> 100%.
> >> >
> >> > We'll have to agree to disagree on this, for the reasons I gave
> >> > above.
> >>
> >> Then, we have to say that you apportion *rights* to women, alone,
> >> but duties to men, in spite of not giving them the other side of
that
> >> coin.
> >>
> >> Thats... SEXIST.
> >
> > Not if you look at why I offered them and what point I was trying
to
> > prove.
>
> Non sequitur. If you wish to claim that women who have made a
> provision for a willing husband to be their co-parent are moral
> equivalents to women who had unprotected single sex, chose,
> unilaterally, to bear a child, and only then, demand that the
> guy pay for *the consequences of her sole choice*, well, I
> cannot agree to that equivalency. As it's deeply untrue.

Now you're just trying to put a spin on what I said and then argue your
own spin.  I didn't say that, and you're still not refuting my claim.

>
> >> >> >> If men are not the prime destroyers of
marriage and family,
> >> >> >> then it is not only sexist and absurd, but Bad Policy
> >> >> >> Making, to behave as if they were.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Agreed.  I have my own theories and
observations regarding
> > what's
> >> >> > happened to men and families, but that's a whole 'nother
thread.
> >> >>
> >> >> And, a collection of books.
> >> >>
> >> >> >> Braver does cover more recent time, but
Wallerstein's work
does
> >> >> >> go back some, as the title of her book
makes clear that the
time
> >> >> >> period in study is at least 25 years.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> > Now, having said that, I can
also say that single women
as
> >> >> >> > a group are not exactly doing a
> >> >> >> >> > bang-up job raising their
kids, especially boys.
> >> >> >> >> > There's a whole host of
issues that are found in boys
> >> >> >> > raised by single
> >> >> >> >> > women.  However, I don't
attach blame to just the
women.
> >> >> >> >> > I think that those men who
abandon their families are
at
> >> >> >> >> > fault in those cases.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> Oh ? Did they have *any* final say
over whether there
would
> >> >> >> > BE a child?
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > Couple of things.  First, though I
didn't specifically say
> >> >> >> > it, I'm referring to those cases where
a man just walks
away
> >> >> > from his family
> >> >> >> > he's been with a number of years. 
Seen it happen, it's
kind
> >> >> >> > of irrefutable that it does.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Sure: Just as it's irrefutable that *more*
women do the same
> >> > thing.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Which, of course, is why I say I won't blame
one side or the
> >> >> > other entirely.
> >> >>
> >> >> Why not ? Did any guy have any say ? Why would you hold people
> >> > granted
> >> >> AbZero *authority* as blameless/responsible as you hold those
with
> >> >> 100% authority ?
> >> >
> >> > Because I don't think single mothers as a group are created
solely
> >> > by the woman giving birth in spite of the man's wishes.
> >>
> >> The factual basis for that claim is.... ?
> >
> > Um...some of them lose their husbands?
>
> Then, that guy CANNOT have " left his family "...

Which has what to do with my assertion that some women find themselves
single mothers due to circumstances beyond their control?  Doesn't
really matter *how*.

>
> DO try to state which group of men you want to bash, you're working
> on at the time, OK, as you're hopping to and fro, the guys who
> die, to the guys who you claim leave intact families, when, in the
> case of the latter, many more women do that, and you're not saying
> *one word of criticism* about them.

Are you really having this much trouble with what I'm saying?  It's
really very simple.  Some women find themselves single mothers due to
circumstances beyond their control.  I offered examples.

Andre, you're putting words in my mouth or reading things into what I'm
saying that just aren't so.

>
> Not to mention all the women who, unilaterally, choose to become
> single by choice mommies.

I'm not referring to them.  If I were, I'd say they were engaged in
selfish, self-serving actions that are destined to harm their children,
especially the boys.  If you have indeed read any of my debates with Hy
on this, you'd know that this was my position.

>
> Were this truely a " man's world ", men would be able to file a
> charge of " misuse of sperm " against such single by choice
> mommies...
>
> >> > There are a host
> >> > of reasons why women become single mothers.  For those instances
> >> > where the woman becomes a single mother because of the father's
bad
> >> > deeds, then he *is* at fault.
> >>
> >> Non sequitur. How can a man make a woman have a baby that she
doesn't
> >> want to ?
> >
> > My comments are a little more inclusive than just this.  If a man
> > suddenly decides he wants to live with that cute little internet
bunny
> > and leaves his wife and his three children aged 4 to 10, she's
become a
> > single mother due to his actions.
>
> And, what when, far more often, mommy wants to shack up with Stud
> Boy ?

Then we'd have an example of how a man became a single father (assuming
he kept the child) due to circumstances beyond his control.  Easy
enough.

>
> >> What *method* shall such a man use, to void her sole female
> >> rights ? Be specific, or withdraw this unsupported claim.
> >
> > lol  I'm withdrawing nothing.  I've been pretty clear about what I
> > mean.
>
> Indeed: Hold men responsible for what men do, and for... what women
> do.

(shrugs)  I can't get any clearer.  If you want to persistently
misinterpret and twist what I'm saying, I can't do much about that.

>
> As I've said, thats sexist and misandrist.

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