knoxy wrote:
> In article , dg411
> {at}FreeNet.Carleton.CA says...
> >
> > Mark Sobolewski (mark_sobolewski{at}yahoo.com) writes:
> > > In article ,
> > >  knoxy  wrote:
> > >
> > >> In article  > >> {at}news.central.cox.net>, mark_sobolewski{at}yahoo.com
> > >> says...
> > >> > In article
,
> > >> >  knoxy  wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> > > In article  > >> > > {at}news.central.cox.net>, mark_sobolewski{at}yahoo.com
> > >> > > says...
> > >> > > > In article
,
> > >> > > >  knoxy  wrote:
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > > In article
,
> > >> > > > > Society{at}feminism.is.invalid says...
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > "lukne"
 barked in message
> > >> > > > > >
news:1106789965.020959.128810{at}z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> > >> > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > [...] But do you really
think it's right to for the
> > >> > > > > > > man to force a woman to
carry a child to term
> > >> > > > > > > and then raise him/her?
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > You're worshipping an idol of
your own creation
> > >> > > > > > lukne: the strawbi*ch.  Tsk,
tsk.  Andre hasn't
> > >> > > > > > advocated that the man
"force" the woman to
> > >> > > > > > do anything, liar lukne; rather
he's pointing out
> > >> > > > > > that it's the woman who expects
to force her
> > >> > > > > > sex partners to finance her baby-lust.
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > The baby grows in the
woman's body making it
> > >> > > > > > > more her decision.
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > Yeah, that makes killing the
unborn "her decision"
> > >> > > > > > and her guilt, too.  How about
you just come
> > >> > > > > > straight out and admit that you
are advocating
> > >> > > > > > a double standard of giving
privileges to the
> > >> > > > > > woman and obligations of her
making to the man.
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > > I know control freaks like
you Andre,
> > >> > > > > > > don't like that.
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > > > There you go lying again,
lukne.  Despite your
> > >> > > > > > desire to pretend otherwise,
the "control freaks"
> > >> > > > > > are you and those like you who
insist on using
> > >> > > > > > the irresponsibility of women
as an excuse for
> > >> > > > > > imposing burdens on those
women's sex partners.
> > >> > > > > >
> > >> > > > > Isn't the womans sex partner just as
irresponsible as
> > >> > > > > she is? You do know that a woman
still need a mans sperm

> > >> > > > > to get pregnant?
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > Pregnancy != a child (unless you argue
that abortion
> > >> > > > is murder.)
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > regards,
> > >> > > > Mark Sobolewski
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > Are you trying to say that a pregnancy can happen
> > >> > > without sperm? I didn't think so, so what you're saying
> > >> > > has nothing to do with what we're discussing.
> > >> >
> > >> > Here's what you said this morning in another post:
> > >> >
> > >> > "If you know that sperm+egg=baby and don't want that to
> > >> > happen, don't have sex or at least use a condom."
> > >> >
> > >> > So are you pro-life?  I want to know which direction
> > >> > we may continue: pro-lifer applying her reasoning to the
> > >> > situation or hypocrite.
> > >> >
> > >> > regards,
> > >> > Mark Sobolewski
> > >> >
> > >> You know damn well that we were discussing a mans
> > >> responsibilty over his own sperm. That has nothing to do
> > >> with pro-life.
> > >
> > > You were also being moralistic and shot yourself in the foot.
> >
> > Quite. Note that, like any common whore of a WomenFirster,
> > knoxious wants to *avoid* women's responsibility with their
> > reproductive materials and choices, while focusing only on
> > men's respoductive materials, while avoiding men's lack of
> > choices...
> >
> > Lets see if knoxious would ever tell women " Don't want
> > babies ? Don't spread your legs ! ".
> >
> I actually have, but the fact of the matter is, that
> women have more choices than men.

More misdirection.

It's not just an issue of more choices, but of the
type of choices being made.

The man chooses to have sex.  The man isn't choosing
to gestate children.

> That doesn't mean that
> men have no choices and no responsibility.

Moot point.  The question is whether he should have
responsibility for someone else's choices.

For example, if a woman chooses to wear a sexy dress
on a date, is she responsible for a date rape if it occurs?
She does have choices, yes?

> You can take responsibility over your own sperm and then
> you don't have to worry about whatever the woman would
> choose in case of a pregnancy.

As I pointed out in another post, you wonder why a
single mother is being increasingly regarded
as a morally low creature when you regard her as
someone whose expected to take the opportunity gestate
unwanted children. This is like saying that you shouldn't
be surprised if your houseguests go around your
bathroom cupboards and kitchen drawers looking and stealing
stuff behind your back.

On the other side of the low moral equation, Andre and
I are defending men sleeping around and leaving their
seed around like Johnny Appleseed.  While such men
are irresponsible, certainly, they aren't necessarily
malicious or uncaring.  If they're engaging in consensual
sex, then the woman is usually quite aware of the risks and
has the choices to deal with them.

Here's what defines morality: If you have a choice to
be decent to another person and that person cannot stop
you, do you go ahead and be indecent anyway?  Your
definition would appear to be that the woman has the legal
and biological ability to be a jerk.  Then you have
the nerve to use the "deadbeat" label.

Somehow, my heart doesn't bleed for these women or
their bastard children.

> I also think it's a good idea if couples discuss what
> they want to do in case of a pregnancy, before engaging
> in sex.

Back to the date rape scenario: Do you think a responsible
woman should discuss her personal safety issues when
meeting a man for a date?

Actually, it turns out that Robert Blake did have a similar
discussion as you proposed with his girlfriend and she
said she would get an abortion if something happened.
She welshed and stuck it to him for marriage.  I guess
she made her "choice".

> > > Good going.
> >
> > She can't help it: Shes a Feminist...
> >
> > > After you get done explaining away "sperm+egg=baby", you
> > > can help us discuss the responsibility of women to
> > > gestate children she knows can be taken care of
> > > without state intervention.
> >
> > Or, why the egg holder *isn't* responsible, in knoxious'
> > vies, while the sperm provider is.
> >
> I've already said that women should take responsibility
> over their wombs and eggs, just as men should take
> responsibility over their sperm.

That's the key here: It's her womb, not his.  He doesn't
spit babies out of his penis.

It's understandable if you're confused over this since
many people in the US are lawsuit crazy and sue
any connected party with deep pockets when possible.
People who buy stepladders and then use them in a negligent
manner have sued the company that made the ladder.  Or
the woman putting a hot beverage between her legs
at McD's and walking away with millions.

One of my favorites was the guy who pulled a McD's and tried
to sue a chemical cleaner company for him taking the chemical
cleaner and putting it into a flimsy container and THEN
putting THAT between his legs while driving and then suing
the manufacturer for his burns.  His argument was the
container supplied by the manufacturer appeared flimsy
so that led him to put it into a worse container.

> You're the one who keep running around like a spoilt
> little child screaming 'it's not fair that she has more
> choices than me, so I'm not going to take any
> responsibility at all'.

I'll agree that Andre's tone doesn't sound very confident.
But let's clarify a few things here:

He does share responsibility for the PREGNANCY.  You know,
that thing you keep referring to as if it's a baby unless
she gets rid of it in which case it's not important? :-)

Certainly, he is responsible for helping to create this
situation the woman is in and should foot the bill for
an abortion.  So your claim that he isn't going to take
any responsibility at all is, as usual, less than honest.

And it's not Andre running around with deadbeat kids.  As I
said, it's the responsible men who really do know to
avoid this unfair, horrible situation and instead the
heroic single mothers are running around like chicken little
asking the government to kick down doors to track all
the men they've slept with.

In other words, I choose to take a dual moral and practical
route and observe that the "make the man pay for
sex through bastard children" system isn't going to work
out.

regards,
Mark Sobolewski



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