In article ,
 "Heidi Graw"  wrote:

> > wrote in message
> >news:1107459855.647577.276880{at}f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> > Heidi Graw wrote:
>
> >>Heidi wrote:
> >> Can't speak for other women, but as for myself I'm not into pity
> >> parties.
>
> >Mark wrote:
> > HAHAHAHAHAHA!
> >
> > As we all know, feminism and women's equality has never
> > stooped to asking for pity and sympathy for women's
> > historical situation.
>
> Mark, everyone who knows me personally, knows they cannot come to me to
> receive pity.  I refuse to allow these types to lay guilt trips on me.

Fair enough.  This may be a personality trait with you.
Some people hate the word pity for personal reasons.

But note that you chose to use that word rather than compassion.
They are two different words.  But let's explore your point:

I also find people laying guilt trips to be dispicable.  It undermines
the true people who deserve (note, not need) pity.
On the contrary: often the people who deserve pity the most
are those least likely (or able) to ask for it.

But yes, there are times that a "guilt trip" is warranted
to hold people up to their chosen standards and conscience.
If you didn't think that the weak, elderly people whom
you hold open doors might squawk in a plaintive voice
a request you help them, might you be more inclined to not
notice them?

I'm not attacking you.  I don't think you're a bad person.
I'm only discussing the value of "pity" and compassion in
human nature.  Sometimes, people can be disgusting creatures
but other times they can make us proud.

> I
> will, however, discuss with them their needs to correct in various practical
> ways whatever mess they created for themselves.

So do you have a chat with the elderly men about how they can
better get those heavy doors open in the future when you
aren't around?

After all, there is no guarantee that someone will be there
to help them with their needs.

> Fell on some hard luck?
> What are the details?  What are some options that are open to correct it?
> If you've merely come to whine and gripe..find someone else's shoulder to
> cry on.  I'm not into that sort of crap.

I can appreciate there are times that needs to be said.
I certainly come across as a hardass myself on soc.men
to some people sometimes.  (Which is kind of funny
because my wife says I'm a softie.)

I find your statement very amazing for someone who used to live
in a scandanavian country and now lives in Canada.

Sometimes, crap just happens or people make mistakes.  You remind
me of my brother.  He is paranoid about not making a mistake
and he then takes great pleasure in pointing out the failings
of others (such as mua :-)  But I would rather listen to
his litany of my shortcomings than have to live with the stick
up his ass that keeps him from possibly showing a flaw.

> >Mark wrote.
> > Intimate relationships require compassion and yes, even pity
> > at times.
>
> I don't want someone's pity for whatever mess I may have gotten myself into.

Are you a parent?

To me, parenthood is about having kids run home crying that
they ran too fast and skinned their knee and kissing it to
make it better, giving them a bandage, and then giving them
a short but kind lecture so they don't make a similar mistake
in the future.

Sometimes, people just need help to cope with hardships they
can't do anything about.  Most men live in a world where
their heterosexual relationships are threatened if they
can't measure up.

For you, maybe all of this is a fun little game.  Maybe you
should try it without the net.

> If I approach someone about a particular problem, I'm there to find some
> practical solutions...things that I may be able to use to fix whatever the
> problems are.
>
> >Someone to hold their hand or listen to
> > their "whine and gripes".  Otherwise, they just have
> > a "partner" or a roommate.
>
> That's right.  My husband didn't marry me 'cause he wanted pity.  He married
> me 'cause I'm a valuable contributor our relationship.

Who says it can't be both?

The question was what men wanted.  This didn't mean that they
wouldn't settle or accept something else.  Did you ever
want ice cream but ate a cookie instead?

As I said, you may not know anything about "real" men because
the men, wisely, never let you that far into their world.
Men get together for poker or with each other and laugh
at how they don't tell all of their feelings to their wives.
We're not talking about evil stuff here but about things
they don't want to say to preserve the peace.

Oh, I forgot: You gals all have this special way of knowing. :-)
Nevermind what I say.

Note that I don't worry too much about what my wife thinks.
She talks too much anyway. :-)  I'm happy for what she brings
to the relationship and I counts my blessings.  I don't
push her into any mold.

> *WE* count on each
> other to explore practical solutions to whatever ails us or whatever
> challenges come our way.  Neither one of us suffers from *victimization*
> although there are enough people outside of our relationship who try very
> hard to make us feel as though we are victims of one thing or another.  We
> don't allow those people to do that to us.  We respect ourselves and each
> other too much to permit either one of us to play some sort of perp/victim,
> holder/beholder, master/slave b.s.  Everything we do for each other is
> designed to maintain one another's dignity.  We love and respect each other.
> We are both equally important to one another. Neither is set one above the
> other.  This relationship works for *us.*  It may not work the same for
> others.  It all depends on the individual personalities involved.
>
> Heidi

Pity can be given people without viewing them as a victim.
As you said, you help old men with their doors without viewing
them as such.  This is why Andre chose the world compassion
because it was about giving people sympathy without necessarily
considering the circumstances.  The men need the door open.
You help them.  That's it.  Nothing more.

regards,
Mark Sobolewski


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