Heidi Graw wrote:
> >"Andre Lieven"  wrote in message

> Can't speak for other women, but as for myself I'm not into pity
parties.

HAHAHAHAHAHA!

As we all know, feminism and women's equality has never
stooped to asking for pity and sympathy for women's
historical situation.

> > Andre wrote:
> > Thanks for showing that you demand what you *refuse* to offer.
>
> Whatever....

You know, when someone says that, that's a sign of
admission on their part that they've lost the argument
but lack the maturity to acknowledge it outright.

"You still haven't cleaned up your room as you promised!!!"

"Whatever"

> > >Heidi wrote:
> >> I'm gathering you want women to have pity on men?  Do you really
see
> >> yourself as pitiful?
>
> >Andre wrote:
> > Garbage in, garbage out...
>
> Well...you're the one who wants women to possess pitying skills.  If
you
> want a woman to pity you, fine...I'm sure one or two can be found to
whom
> you can whine and gripe.

Heidi,

Your very response is a perfect example of precisely
what Andre is talking about.

Intimate relationships require compassion and yes, even pity
at times.  Someone to hold their hand or listen to
their "whine and gripes".  Otherwise, they just have
a "partner" or a roommate.

I dated several "equality" career women in the states
who were generously willing to consider
relationships with men who only merely earned as much as they
did.  I declined.  I didn't feel that the relationships
had much oomph or vavoom or passion.

For many people, it's quite acceptable.  Be good and
don't F-up and provided everything works out equal, you
can have a relationship with this other person.

Blah.

> > >Heidi wrote:
> >> I was under the impression real men don't want pity, they want
respect.
>
> >Andre werote:
> > That too. One might even exect resiprocation there, too...

For one thing, your impression isn't necessarily what
men are.

To be philosophical for a moment (or ten, you've been warned),
we all live in our own universe.  I think Andre is a
crazy, leftist with an identity crisis who speaks
moderately good Russian.  But Andre may view himself
totally differently. :-)  He may even be totally
different than how I view him since
I only know of him from some USENET posts I've read from him.

Your view of men is totally clouded by your desire for
men to be what you want plus positive and negative experiences
you have had with individual men.  You might, repeat might,
be lucky enough to have a GLIMPSE into what makes your
husband tick much less "real" men in general.

When I hear women talk about what "real" men want, that sounds
more like they're trying to impose their vision
of what "real" men should be like rather than what
they truly are.

This may explain why women, despite having so much power
in their personal lives, still pour over these magazines
trying to figure out what men want and think.  They don't
want to go to the source because they subconsciously know
that their fantasies would crumble.

Men, at least, are more honest and "compassionate" for women
as they truly are.  When I went to strip clubs (with
friends for social reasons :-), we laughed at how most
of these women probably despised us or were lesbians.
We could still be turned on.  We could still treat them
with respect.  But we could accept reality and our fantasies
not being the same thing.

> >> Heidi wrote:
> >> I've made it a point regarding the men in my life to not pity
them.

WHY DOESN'T THAT SURPRISE US?

Imagine, for a moment, how different our society would
be if men stopped pitying women.

> > Andre wrote:
> > No proof offered ? Claim fails.
>
> LOL....
>
> > >Heidi wrote:
> >> I will,
> >> however, respect them...listen to what they have to say, pay
attention to
> >> them...that sort of thing.

Patronize them.

> >>Heidi wrote:
> >> And when I say "listen to" that does not
> >> necessarily mean listen to as in obey, but rather hear them out.
And if
> >> they want help, we can talk about the sort of help they think they
need
> >> and
> >> in what manner.  I think

Fill out form 2401-B to request Form 44-A and then
after 2 weeks of processing, the agency will get
back to you about your problem.

> >> "respect" is far more dignifying and empowering
> >> than having pity for someone.
>
> > Andre wrote:
> > Well, thanks for showing that you remain locked to dictionaries,
which
> > claim but cannot show, that " feminism is a movement for equality
".
> >
> > Back to GIGO...
>
> I only hand out respect to those who deserve it.
>
> Heidi

A meritocracy!

I remember you mentioning you hold open doors for old
and disabled men.  Do you do this because you
pity and lack respect for them?

regards,
Mark Sobolewski



--- UseNet To RIME Gateway {at} 2/3/05 6:18:22 PM ---