Quotes are taken from a message written by Michael to Charles on 08/05/96...
MM>What are we doing nowadays?  We work all day at a phone-headset, in
MM>a little cubicle with hundreds of other data-entry personnel, conducting
MM>phone surveys.  Mindless, boring.  You don't need an education for that.
And herein lies the heart of our differences.  I am not working all day 
"at a phone-headset, in a little cubicle with hundreds of other 
data-entry personnel."  I am in an extremely interactive environment 
working with children and other well-educated adults - I find it to be a 
very stimulating way to earn a living.
MM>CB> Another place to look is modern day Africa where emerging third world 
MM>CB> nations are trying to claw and scratch their way into the modern age. 
MM>
MM>The only reason they're trying to claw their way, is because that's the
MM>only hope they have to buffer the onslaught of being overrun by powerful
MM>industrial countries who strip them of their natural resources.  They 
MM>haven't asked for it.
This is an interesting take on the situation in Africa.  Perhaps it is 
unfair of me to project my view of the world on a nation I've never 
lived in - I had assumed that since many of the nations were attempting 
to modernize that they WANTED to modernize.  Do you have any reason to 
believe they are trying to "buffer the onslaught of being overrun by powerful
industrial countries" other than YOUR projections?
MM>Consider your wording : "leading the world".  Do you think that to
MM>lead the world is an honorable goal?
Yes.
MM>To impose your thoughts of what things should be like on other 
MM>cultures, more often than not against their will; to fashion a world 
MM>economy which makes only a few people rich, but which you as a 
MM>country must participate in or else become poorer than you were before ...
There have been others before Illich who have dreamed of Utopian 
societies, but always they have failed because they tried to deny the 
basic nature of humankind.  There is a competitiveness about us that 
will force some to lead and others to follow.  I would far rather see 
the U.S., with its ideals of democracy and minority rights (even though 
we don't do it perfectly) leading the way than to have the U.S.S.R. or 
Hitler's Nazi Germany doing the leading.
MM>No, because there are _no other opportunities_ allowed.  School is it.
That's not true.  What makes people successful is happiness - the truck 
driver who loves his work (some states do NOT require special licenses), 
the mason who is a craftsman (apprenticeship instead of school), 
inventor (limited only by his/her own imagination), etc.
MM>It's the only thing that recieves federal funding.
I don't believe that only people who receive federal funding can be 
successful.
MM>It's the only place with well-equipped labs and fancy computers.  
MM>It's the only place, outside of corporate labs, where up-to-date 
MM>research is done.
I thought you (under the guise of advocating Illich's work) were arguing 
that this should all be done away with - that anyone, whether trained or 
not, should be able to operate fancy equipment?  Now I'm confused.
For my clarification - are you arguing (as I thought you were) that all 
certification for jobs (college profs was one you've mentioned in the 
past) should be done away with (anyone who wants to teach in a college 
should be able to walk onto the campus and begin teaching), or are you 
arguing that anyone who wants to earn that certification should have the 
right to without prior conditions (anyone can go to college even if they 
didn't graduate from high school)?  I think it would be pretty silly of 
a college, which is advocating an advanced education, to allow anyone 
without a college degree to teach there - it would very much undermine 
their own philosophy - sort of like an airline allowing an uncertified 
pilot to fly one of their 5 million dollar airplanes.
MM>School is accredited, it's got the stamp of approval.  If you don't 
MM>make it in school, forget it, you're going to rot.
Well, I see SOME truth in that - education is a ticket to a better 
lifestyle in the U.S., but everyone is told that going in - no surprises 
there.  But more to the point, it is not a hard and fast rule.  I'm sure 
we can find lots of well-educated people who are unhappy, some working 
in much worse jobs than they ever imagined, and there are many people 
who are poorly educated who are doing well.  I think it's more a matter 
of what each individual does with his or her life than it is what the 
government, employers and associates set up as the "rules."
No matter what we do in life, we must invest something to get there.  We 
need to spend money to buy the machines for our factory, or we need to 
buy the tools of the trade so we can repair automobiles, or we need to 
spend 4 years and thousands of dollars to get the ticket to teach 
children, etc.  There's a cost to everything worth having.  If you don't 
invest in yourself, whether it's going to school or preparing yourself 
in some other manner, you're only going to get the leftovers.  I don't 
think Illich's system would change that.
MM>CB> Can you point to any models of nations, or classes of people, that
MM>CB> have succeeded based on the model you're promoting?
MM>
MM>Every current third-world fringe culture and most pre-19th century
MM>world cultures.
I'm not sure I understand this very well either.  As I understand it, 
people in pre-19th century civilization were, for the most part, very 
poor.  They worked farmland for wealthy land-owners or they lived in the 
filth and squalor of inner cities - there was very little of what we'd 
call a "middle-class."  My impression of Africa is much the same - 
except for those playing the game of working their way into the cultures 
of the industrialized world, they live in mud huts, worried about where 
their next meal will come from.  Are you suggesting that's a better way 
of life, or do you know something of these cultures that I don't?
Chuck
___
* UniQWK #5290* Ever get the feeling your guardian angel is laughing?
--- Maximus 2.01wb
---------------