USA wrote:
> On 20 Feb 2005 13:49:41 -0800, "bluesmama"

> wrote:
>
> >
> >USA wrote:
> >> On 20 Feb 2005 13:24:15 -0800, "bluesmama"

> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >_TR_ wrote:
> >>
> >> >> > Birth is a natural process, of course. But try
not to confuse
> >> >natural
> >> >> > with easy or uncomplicated; natural doesn't
necessarily mean
> >> >without
> >> >> > effort, effect or pain.
> >> >>
> >> >> So, having a cancerous tumor removed *by someone else* is a
"great
> >> >> achievement" on behalf of the bearer of the
tumor?  Well, it
> >involves
> >> >> effort of some sort, surely effect of various sorts and most
> >likely a
> >> >great
> >> >> deal of pain.
> >> >>
> >> >> TR II
> >>
> >> >Well, I'd hardly call my children cancerous tumors that were
removed
> >> >from my body, or even anything remotely like that, so I have a
> >problem
> >> >with your analogy right off.
> >>
> >> No one asked you what *you* would call anything.  You were posed a
> >> question and you failed to answer it.
> >
> >Giving birth to a child was compared to a cancerous tumor. The
analogy
> >used to pose the rhetorical question was suspect. So I pointed the
> >inappropriateness out, and didn't answer the question that didn't
seem
> >written to elicit an answer. It was a statement masquerading as a
> >question, and espousing a point of view I disagree with.
>
> Yadda yadda yadda.  Your responses are so predictable.
>
> Here's the issue:  You were asked a question by TR and you've been
> dodging it ever since it was asked.  Obviously if you could answer it
> you would have already done so.

Is this the question you are referring to:

"So, having a cancerous tumor removed *by someone else* is a "great
> >> >> achievement" on behalf of the bearer of the tumor?"

If so, my answer to the question is no. Obviously. Though I still
consider the analogy hopelessly inadequate and inappropriate to the
comment it engendered, which was this:

"> >> >> > Birth is a natural process, of course.
But try not to
confuse
> >> >natural
> >> >> > with easy or uncomplicated; natural doesn't
necessarily mean
> >> >without
> >> >> > effort, effect or pain."

Now, if you can't see that the comment was discussing birth as a
natural process, and the analogy of surgery, which is NOT a natural
process is not appropriate, then I'm quite surprised and maybe a little
sad for you.

I believe birth is both a great achievement, and a natural process. I
also believe many things can be great achievements, coal-mining and
bridge-building among them. However, I see neither of those
achievements as natural, and neither of them as important as producing
a human life.

> >> >Surgery isn't a natural procedure, either, so again the analogy
> >doesn't
> >> >work for me. Can you think of an other example that might get
your
> >> >point across?
> >>
> >> No reason to.  Ever hear of a CESAREAN SECTION?
> >
> >Yes, a Caesarean Section is a common surgical procedure.
> >
> >> Surigical procedures aren't "natural procedures"
according to you.
> >So
> >> women who have C-Sections aren't really giving birth?  Or are
those
> >> births just less important and valuable than your vaginal births?
> >
> >Are surgical procedures natural to you? Maybe you're talking about
> >faith healing c-sections, done with magic instead of instruments?
> >Because having your belly cut open doesn't seem at all natural to
me.
> >
> >Is it a less important and valuable way to give birth. No. But that
> >doesn't make it natural.
>
> What about women who have an episiotomy, or have pain killers
> administered to them during labor?  What about labor that is
monitored
> by fetal monitors?  How "natural" is any of this?

Not natural at all. Next question?

> You and I know you had at least one of the above during your labor
and
> deliveries.  Unless you're talking about "faith healing" episotomies,
> pain killers, or fetal monitors"  to paraphrase your own not so funny
> comment above.

As happens so often, you miss the point entirely. I had an episiotomy
with one child, drugs given to try and stop labor because in two cases
the deliveries were premature, and one completely natural birth. Birth
is a natural process. Hospital birth and the procedures many doctors
use, while useful and often life-saving, are not natural.

> [...] because having wires run up your crotch and connected to a
> machine or a doctor cutting your crotch open with a scalpel or
> shooting you up with pain killing drugs doesn't seem "at all natural
> to me."    ;-)

Well we agree on that at least. And I can attest to the fact that I
know exactly how the procedures feel, from firsthand experience.



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