On Tue, 29 Apr 2003 17:06:56 -0500 Shalanna  writes:
> At 04:11 PM 4/29/2003 -0500, BarbJ wrote:
> (in response to my statement)
>  >> Either you have the suspense and urgency, or you have pages of 
> angst-ridden
>  >>inner monologue.
>  >Not necessarily true. They CAN go hand-in hand.
>  >Look at the Hammettesque Detective Novels.
>  >It's NOT either/or, but balance.  Hand AND footholds on the 
> mountainface
> 
> Yeah, I'm kind of making a sweeping statement.  In general, you have 
> a 
> suspense novel, or you don't, you have an action novel or you have a 
> novel   with a theme that does have some action.  Know what I mean? 
And 

I do.
And you realize that's sweeping, too.
There are books that balance all the above.
Beware the generalization -- especially with this crowd.
The newcomers will take you seriously, the rest will nit pick you.

> this   particular novel is not majorly action.  

Your problem is, it SEEMS from your descriptions, that your gritty
setting demands more, well, grit.

> I suspect that this agent  has 
> found it much easier to peddle suspense 

possibly so

> (The Day After Tomorrow, and 

don't know it, but recognize the genre in general

> so 
> forth) than this kind of thing that I write.

could well be

>  >musing<
> 
> Sure, I can see where some novelists do manage to have a good 
> balance.  I 
> always think that I do, when I'm writing it.  I did try to cut down 
> on the 
> constant "thinking" and "analyzing" for that
particular book, just 
> let her 
> "be," which is a departure for me.
> Welllll . . . I have a bit of interior monologue in there.  Yet it's 
> not 
> coming across as to why Camille's not fretting that much.  I mean, 
> maybe I 
> just remember being sixteen better than people who are more mature 
> (and I 
> mean that in a good sense--they're lucky, because I am out of sync.) 

I dunno. I remember 16, and have volumes of pathos'd poetry to show for
it.
There's all sorts of 16.

But remember: FICTION must be "truer" than Truth.

Sure, there are all sorts of folks out there -- but do we want to READ
about them?
Just playing Devil's Advocate.

>  When 
> I was sixteen, I had a good intellect, but my emotional development 
> was not 
> that great.  I could bumble into something and really not realize 
> there was 
> danger.  Or I could see danger that wasn't there.  I could be 
> hysterical 
> about nothing, then the next moment perfectly happy dealing with a 
> crisis.  It's just . . . different.

But your READER has to believe it.
Writing is persuasion.

In fiction it's persuading the reader to come along for the tale --
either to while away a few hours or to sneak in some more lasting
relationship bits. So you must PERSUADE the reader to believe your
characters are acting "realistically" (within the context of the novel).
Now some just do NOT get it, and there's no point trying to help them
unless you like hard cases.
With others, if you deem them worth it, you must sort out WHY they're not
getting it.

Remember, as the writer you've got ALL the backstory (well, ok, a
hellofalot more) than the reader.
Sometimes we THINK something's in there that we've left out, and we've
over sold some other piece.
But if I find myself having to justify (to the reader) why I took a given
approach, odds are something's not clicked. My lovely device, so well
plotted out in my head, isn't carrying its own weight.  Sometimes the fix
is a minor tweak up front, sometimes it's major, sometimes it means
abandoning the project....

Nature of the biz, I fear. Which is hard on both sheet rock and
foreheads....

Responding sensibly to critique -- or even the vague "I don't get this"
-- from a reader is, perhaps, THE hardest thing as a writer. Our egos
become super-charged landmines: we respond with everything from denial to
becoming a feather for every wind that blows (sometimes within hours of
each other).

Tuning the "internal shit detector" is an ongoing business.

In my case, when I start hearing repetition from readers, I really,
really need to take note.
Even if they're WRONG about the problem -- e.g. pointing to a symptom,
not the disease -- I must muse and evaluate and see where the "compiler"
is failing.
Sometimes it's worth the exercise, sometimes not. 
(But I write such piffle usually -- basically to entertain myself -- I
really do hesitate to inflict it on people.)

Still, when it WORKS.... Lawdy, there's little better.

>  >And there's where writing becomes the big headache of pleasing the 
> reader
> 
> Yeah. . .and I've already acknowledged that my readership will be a 
> vertical market.
> 
> The friend of ours who's working on our roof and patio cover 
> (totaled in 
> hailstorm) had me ride over to Home Depot this morning with him.  He 
> said, 
> "So how much do you make off one book?"  He didn't think the 
> time/effort/payback was nearly worth it.  He'd like me to get my 
> butt up  and do something that actually saw some benefit!  

Yes, well, we all have "practical" friends and relatives. They mean well,
but they clearly don't "get" it.
Smile sweetly and tell the ego to go back to what it was doing, nothing
to concern it here.

OTOH, there is distinct pleasure in doing something, like a patio cover,
that is There.

I'm not the person to judge, of course, because my greatest failing is to
continue pressing on all fronts, from practical bits to the fantasy.
[You can guess which bit gets the helm most of the time.]
I can even find satisfaction in stacking a pickup load of bricks.
Wouldn't want to make a living at it, of course -- too lazy and too HOT
in Texas....

>  >And, yes, wailing and gnashing of teeth is allowed (just don't 
> kick the dog
> 
> Dog looks up soulfully, wondering why Mama never seems to be happy. 
> . . .

((there MIGHT be a message in that))
As been said here a zillion times:
If it's NOT making you happy, it's not worth it.
Unless you're a masochist.

Fine, there are moments of utter misery in any creative line.
The hyper rainbow in here =tapping head= is EVER so much better than ANY
of the bits that fade to grey on the "page."
But when the misery exclipses the joy of the endeavor, it's time to
rethink.
Maybe simply settle for writing just for yourself for a while. 
Quit worrying about the market and Write.
If the bits prove saleable, it's that side of ice cream with the hot
pecan pie. But the PIE is the point.

If you're going to focus on the prize of being marketable, however,
you'll have to adapt the pie recipe to what folks are buying (and that's
a moving target). 
And if that activity brings you nothing but pain, then perhaps....
=shrug=
There's no point resenting the fact that people seem to prefer "something
else." It just is.

Or you'll have to hone your sleuthing abilities and find where the like
souls congregate.

Sure, writing is all about COMMUNICATING.
Sure, there's a thrill seeing those words of yours bound and on the shelf
with their very own ISBN.
But it's not worth destroying yourself in the pursuit -- imho.

>  >=sternly= That's like saying complementary colors can't work 
> together.
> 
> I've been said to be color-impaired before, wearing purple and pink 
> or  orange and pink together.

Well, the thing is, those aren't complementary colors.
See, you get into TROUBLE by going just a step over in the color wheel
(it's a physiological response of the eye, as well as an emotional
response to color). Like a couple of us told the lady in the Bed & Bath
today: if she didn't know which green her tiles were, then a green rug
was a bad idea. [Sage green can go muddy on teal green.]
It's being a half-note or note off. Jars the eye/ear, etc.
Again, these odd pairings can WORK, but you have to address value and
tone and brightness and other bits.... They're tricky they are, and the
near miss tends to jar worse than the way off....

Comes back around to BALANCE.
And accepting that sometimes the colors that make you happy in
combination aren't gonna work for most. [This from the woman in the
Hawaiian print shirt.]

>  >Is it simply a stylistic thing, or is something I'm doing or not 
> doing
>  >not getting my intentions across? Usually it's a mix of the above
> 
> Well, I'm wondering about pulling out this scene with the antagonist 
> and 
> making it the prologue.  But it starts the reader off in the wrong 
> head . . 

Then don't.
Those first paragraphs set up expectations.

I blew a short-story by starting out: "Marley was dead."
Folks expected the resonance with Dickens that wasn't there.
Sure, a clever line, but it scuttled the tale (which was a leaky enough
boat already).

> . some might say I haven't got the right head YET . . . anyway, they 
> won't 
> meet the gal they're supposed to be rooting for until the first 
> chapter.  I   think the prologue thing is way overdone and is a little
cheesy.  

then don't

> Still, I   may have to resort to that.  Something else may come to me.

Could be you're starting in the wrong spot.

I know I'm in REAL trouble when I find myself justifying a character (or
the character working too hard to justify/avoid a certain bit). I've got
pages of characters going on and on about how they're not the right
person for the job.
And, guess what! they weren't.
Give this other person the job and it's like toothpaste out of a smashed
tube..... whoopee!

>  >OTOH, the protagonist needs to be emotionally accessible, or 
> readers lose
>  >interest.  They need something to hook into in the tale to carry 
> them 
> along... their
>  >"belief" needs to be fed enough that the suspension of disbelief 
> doesn't 
> slosh.
> 
> Right . . . right . . . I mean, *some* readers will understand that 
> the  character is just putting on the armor.  Like putting on the armor

> of God, 
> but in this case it's the armor of pretending not to care.  It's a 
> vulnerability not on the surface.

then you have to show it elsewhere.
Hell, look at Athos in the Three Musketeers...

>  >Or doomed to keep trying other doors in the labyrinth.
> 
> Here's where Ariadne's thread would come in handy.

Well, that's assuming there's something you want to go BACK to....
Except for my figure in 1990, there's not a WHOLE lot I miss, and fewer
still that I regret.
The journey is still unwinding to its mysterious end.

>  >The director that didn't cast me as Hamlet's mother nor Beatrice 
> lacked
>  >imagination, too (hell hath no fury like the woman who didn't get 
> the part).
> 
> Idiot.  He's the one who staged "Richard III" with King Richard as 
> gay, right?  

nope
nada
He'd be playing Richard himself, likely.

No, he liked a certain =cough= willowiness in his actresses, and a, to my
mind, too whiney delivery. [Review not on scorn, accept this MAY color
perception -- some.]

=shrug= 

Too bad. Life IS. (At least mine.)

Now there's an endeavor that was fun for the run, but turned into work
and heartbreak. Because I realized I couldn't have what I dreamed -- not
due to ability (or lack) ((according to people whose opinions I respect
and believe)) but due to the simple fact I look like I do.
So I faced the choice: pray THIS director won't be prejudiced (and there
were a couple, God BLESS 'em, but only a couple) and don't get uptight
when I'm playing the clown AGAIN, certainly NEVER *want* a part, or exit
stage left. 
Oh yeah, I'll get suckered back in someday -- the disease is only in
remission. Or not.
When it brought me joy, it was enormous. But when the pain eclipsed that,
it was time to move on to other outlets.

My problem (yes, it IS) is that I have no shortage of viable other
outlets....
OTOH, it allows me some space between the trouble areas and my soul,
giving me the balm of time to see things more clearly.
Nothing like doing something ELSE for a while to shake out the burrs.
[Plays HELL with "progress" in the usual sense, however.]

>  >But beware the impulse to wallow in it.
> 
> Oh, no--I just vent for a while.  Today, though, the 
> contractor/friend was 
> standing there while I'm reading this e-mail and he's saying, "Who 
> are 
> these people?  If you can't work with them, go somewhere 
> else!"    Somebody outside this particular industry just can't 
> understand why things are the way they are.  I just told him that 
> I'd have to think on it a while.

You need to stop reading these emails with witnesses....

And he knows the pain of rejection, too. He just can't see across the
context.

> Yet another agent (one I met at a conference) said, "Okay, so you 
> can write 
> well and you have no trouble with the mechanics, and so what you 
> need is a 
> little direction.  So go and buy this book and that book (naming 
> some 
> best-sellers), and then if you can write one like that, I want to 
> see 
> it."  I have to laugh now, but at the time I eagerly scribbled down 
> the 
> titles and headed for the bookstore.  Sure, make some more of those 
> bluejeans just like the samples here, and I'll buy 'em.  Only thing 
> is,   this doesn't work that way for me.

make your peace with it, then -- start your own boutique.
This week's Women's World has on the cover: "Have a hobby? Bette and Beth
made millions with theirs!"
[Though it's the loose 29 lbs by Memorial day that might push me into
glancing inside.]

>  >There are those of us who flip the world off and keep dancing, 
> because we
>  >LIKE our idiosyncratic drummer.  Others leave the floor and only 
> dance 
> when no
>  >one's watching.  Others still decide it's important enough to 
> learn the 
> steps of the
>  >latest rag.
> 
> Call me Klutz, 'cause even when I think I'm copyin' the steps, I'm 
> still 
> out of step here.  I'm *trying* to figure it out, which is a job in 
> itself.

Yes it is. ((dammit))

>  >Still and all: We *DO* care.....
> 
> Thanks.    I *really* don't come here *just* to make 
> somebody try to figure out what to say to me . . . although it helps 
> a 
> lot.  I am always thinking that sharing the journey might be 
> interesting to 
> some of the others out there who are considering starting the climb.
> 
> Truth is that if you go out on other lists, or read the "Publishers 
> Lunch" 
> thing that somebody cobbles up every morning and sends out, there 
> are a   HECK of a lot of people not finding it hard to sell at all. 
For 

Lucky them!
I wish them well.
My friend Liz has the golden touch -- but they're nonfiction and likely
to sell 12 copies.
Still, woo woo for her.

> whatever   reason, they've got the beat and are on the wavelength, and
the 
> first thing   out of their typer, they sell to the first person they
send it to.  

the wheel will turn....
(the trick, of course, is Which Way -- and do we hang on? or JUMP!!!)
Maybe you ought to get yourself a St. Joseph (or a St. Jude) to help you
along....
or a Ganesha (or all the above)
I'm all for keeping a host of spirits on my side.
[Thing is, they seem to have PLANS -- ah well! It's a heck of a journey!]

> Really, thanks for caring.

de nada....

> 
> Yours truly, I remain, &c.
> 
> "There will be another song for me, and I will sing it; there will 
> be
> another dream for me--someone will bring it." Jimmy Webb, 
> "MacArthur
> Park"

Music was his life, it was not his livelihood
And it made him feel so happy
And it made him feel so good
And he sang from his heart
And he sang from his soul
He did not know how well he sang
It just made him whole.....
                                --"Mr. Tanner" Harry Chapin

Hang in there.
-B

====
It is amazing how frequently we march off to battle without knowing what
the war is all about. --Harriet Goldhor Lerner; "The Dance of Anger"
====
Of course, most of us secretly believe that we have the corner on the
"truth" and that this would be a much better world if everyone else
believed and reacted exactly as we do. --Harriet Goldhor Lerner; "The
Dance of Anger"

--- Rachel's Little NET2FIDO Gate v 0.9.9.8 Alpha