-=> Quoting Dan Triplett to Michael Martinez <=-
 DT> MICHAEL MARTINEZ spoke of Re: Ivan Illich to DAN TRIPLETT on 08-06-96
 
 MM> DT> Because students, like all "children" needed to be guided by
 MM> DT> responsible  adults who understand that given a choice with no
 MM> DT> immediate consequences  many would choose not to attend school.
 MM> 
 MM>That's the responsiblity of their parents, not you Dan nor any
 MM>policy- maker.
 DT> I don't agree.  There are laws regarding attendance in school. 
What I mean to say, is that SHOULD be the responsiblity of parents, not
strangers.  There shouldn't be any laws interfering with that.
 DT> I am sure Illich has some ideas that can benefit education.  But to 
 DT> suggest the whole system be dismantled and then restructured is not 
 DT> reality.
Actually he says there's no point in doing anything except dismantling
the entire system, and I agree with him.
 DT> It would be an impossible task to start all over.
I don't think so.  I think it would just fall into place.  It would
have to, for society to function.  We think that school is the ONLY
way to get things done.  But that's not true.  It's the only option we're
given but there are others, better ones out there.
 DT> there  are many badly needed structural changes, these changes, if they
 DT> come at  all, will come slowly and over time.  Changes that Illich
 DT> suggests could  only happen over time.  The system won't allow for
 DT> anything else.
Naturally.  In fact, it doesn't allow for any of the changes that Ilich
or you or I would propose.
 DT> So to  suggest otherwise is a waste of time.
If you see a drowning person are you going to ignore him because it's
fate for him to be in there drowning?  Yeah going against the system is
formidable.  But it's worse to sit around doing nothing, cuz then
you're an accomplice in the atrocities.
 DT> the suggested changes  were seen as positive and accepted by all in the
 DT> educational system, the  change could only come about gradually. 
 DT> Illich's ideas are too radical  to have any chance of serious
 DT> consideration in the field of education. So for all the ideas he may
 DT> have, good or bad, it is like blowing into  the wind.  
I am a firm believer of not compromising.  When you compromise, you 
ompromise
the truth, you compromise other people and their values and their worth.
Anything EXCEPT trying to impliment Illich's suggestions is doomed, under
the present system, to have the opposite effect to what you intend.  He
explains this very well.  They system is inherently designed that way.
 DT> Perhaps you could focus attention on areas where change _could_ occur.
I don't really agree with that.  The way things are put together now, the
only changes which can occur are the ones which benefit the current thrust
of things.
 DT> Doesn't it seem obvious that no matter what you may think about
 DT> Illich's  ideas, the educational system will not accept them?  Seem
 DT> like a waste  of time to continue pursuing the idea.
I don't care whether the educational _system_ accepts them or not.  What
is important is what you and me do with these ideas.  We can write about
them, like Illich has done, to open up people's eyes.  We can impliment
them in our own little circle of friends and students.  There's a lot of
things you can do.  There's a powerful film by Necessary Illusions, on
Noam Chomsky (Manufacturing Consent: Noam Chomsky and the Media) which
shows Noam Chomsky lecturing and discussing with an audience of regular
people, like you and me.  One lady ask him, "Professor Chomsky, it's
easy for you to go around talking about what changes need to be done 
because you're a well-known author and MIT professor and you have the
resources to travel the world.  But what can someone like me, an 
ordinary mom, do to help make the world a better place?"
And Chomsky answered by saying, "Do whatever you are good at, whatever
comes natural to you in your natural gifts.  If you're good at
organizing neighborhood meetings.  Maybe you're a school-teacher"
And so on.
Many years ago, the heir to the Baskin-Robbins fortune refused it, he gave
it up in protest to big American corporations like McDonald's which raise
cattle in third world countries like Brazil so that the meat can be used
in _America_, not in Brazil.  He said, "I can't be a part of this".  That
was his contribution.
I really really recommend renting and watching the Chomksy movie.  I 
remember it as being artistically done.  It impacted the lives of
four of my friends, this film alone.  My friends MArk and Jeremy watched
it and they were stunned.  I think it has changed MArk's life and he
may change careers because of it.  My other two friends, Dick and Fred
are men in their late 40's.  They've been around.  They're intelligent
guys, both Ph.Ds in Math, working at National Center for Atmospheric
Research.  They called me up one night specifically to let me know that
they had just watched the film, and it blew them away!  The film's in two
long parts.  They've finished the first part real late.  And they decided
that they couldn't wait to watch the second part, they had to finish it
that same night.  These guys are pretty politically literate, but they
came away with a different view of the world, not quite knowing what to
say.
Like Zinn or John Stockwell or Illich, the movie just shows you how the
world works and why the people who run the world do the things the
way they do.  It's as simple as that.  These authors have dissected the
ways of power and policy with clear and unswayed eyes, and they tell it
like they see it.  They don't sweeten it or distort it.
-michael
--- Blue Wave/DOS v2.30 [NR]
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