"Rob"  skrev i melding
news:1112655008.746605.96930{at}o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> There ain't no right side, Tron.
> Just the successful side, at whatever level of culture you specify.

That is not so. Given that you are menber of group A, in conflict with group
B.
You can follow plan 1 or plan 2, both certain to make group A beat group B.
So success is secure. However, the results within group a are very different
after
plan 1 than after plan 2. Ideally, one should chose the "better" plan, the
"better" outcome.
So there is a "right" (or ideal), if not tied to sides.

"Force on the side of justice" is actually somewhat of a motto for
poli.sci., taken, IIRC, from some of the old guys like Grotius or some such.

The levels of application thing was my request for clarification of
"evolutionary success" (ES). ES for an idea is to be replicated a lot of
times (the epidemic model). ES for a class within a society is to get to the
top, but not killing the goose that lays golden eggs. In the clash of
societies and nations and cultures, attempted extinction is par for the
course. So which is it for "an adjustment of our value systems in the
context of their potential for evolutionary success"?


>
> You sound rather fatalist.

Such is my destiny.

To me, some ideals (equality, respect for life) are regulatory only. Trying
to achieve them directly is impossible or leads to hell on earth (I don't
doubt that Torquemada's motives were of the utmost purity). It's a bit like
the North Pole and compasses - they only make sense together, but only very
few use the compass to actually go to the North Pole.
While such "realism" - in the eyes of many, cynicism - may be the
invitingly
flat entry ramp to a perilous slippery slope, a realistic assessment of ends
and means is IMHO justified.

> Aren't there tactics, like non zero sum gains, that can benefit us all?

Of course there are. It's only wrt. C4M that nobody, AFAICS and as yet, has
been able to come up with a model which results in a win-win for all
participants. If there were, I'd welcome it and I hope and believe that most
other people also would. Much of the animosity and sundry other emotions
connected with this, are caused by the circumstance that under all current
models, someone is going to lose. Nobody wants to end up holding the bag
with the hot potato while scrambling for the chairs as the music stops.

> It seems to me that nearly half the western team is getting mighty
> disillusioned and that some change is due.

Agreed.

> Are you suggesting we just sit back and watch?

No. IIRC you were the one who introduced this as a forum for "identifying
and disputing". I thought I was doing that. I even tossed in the bit about
translating the results of diagnosis into political programs. But going  F4J
activist in soc.men is a bit like preaching to the choir, isn't it?

Perhaps my posts make people sit back and watch, but proper semantics does
take time ...

>
> What advice should I give to my sons, both edging towards marriage (to
> their own partners, of course!), I fear?
> I want to scream STOP! But they are mesmerised by the fantasy of
> romantic love.  I can't bear to have them suffer the almost unavoidable
> pain.
> My fault, I know. It was so late before I realised.

Difficult issues. I won't presume to answer, although I would like to
comment.

- It is very hard to impart the results of experience other than by
experience.
A meagre comfort, but perhaps there is little you can do at the moment.

Your relationship with them is very important. How you approach this is
almost more important than what you actually say, since you will not want to
be undermine any trust by being seen as "meddlesome" (like ..by a daughter
in law ...) or "know it all". (I see you don't actually do scream.)
If they listen, give them advice on prenups and agreements and emergency
accounts and whatever you can find, with refernce to general custom in the
world of lawyers and other predators: do it while there is peace, in war it
becomes impossible.

You will have to bear them suffering almost inavoidable pain.

Then they will need you to be solid rock; perhaps, circumstances permitting,
with a small Divorce Survival Kit already packed.

>But can we/should we try to save our grandsons?

Do something?

T




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