In article  ,
"Ben"
 wrote:

> (snip the original article)
>
>
> categories we're not even in the Top 10
>> >> >>> anymore. Not even close.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> The USA is "No. 1" in nothing but
weaponry, consumer spending,
>> > debt,
>> >> >>> and delusion.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Reprinted from the Austin Chronicle.
>> >> >>> www.citypages.com/databank/26/1264/article12985.asp
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > Most of the statistic's above courtesy of that
bastion of truth,
>> > The
>> >> > New York Times.
>> >>
>> >> I'd imagine that the Austin, TEXAS paper probably checked the
> stats -
>> > given
>> >> the Times track record in accuracy.
>> >
>> > They might have, but I wouldn't rely on it.  Newspapers are
> notorious
>> > for simply taking and running with what another paper prints.  The
> NYT,
>> > for all its flaws, is still identified as the newspaper of record
> in
>> > the industry.
>>
>> Hmm. I really wish I could gind that NH Gazette item about the Times
> and
>> their ability to speak truthfully..
>
> Oh, I don't doubt you about the NH Gazette, I'm just wondering if the
> Texas newspaper did more than cut and paste from NYT.
>
>
>> >
>> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>Oh yeahhhhh...
>> >> >>
>> >> >>It's gonna be fun watching the FoxNews weenies
squeal like pigs
> in
>> > a poke
>> >> >>when the shit hits it.
>> >> >
>> >> > Turn that tube off, once in awhile, Deb.   Recently, you've
> posted
>> >> > comments on a list of sit-coms, including 'Sex and The City',
> and
>> >> > reality shows e.g., 'queer eye for the straight guy' etc., and
> yet
>> >> > watch those and many other programs.  Aren't you the one who
> says
>> > she
>> >> > doesn't watch Television?  Then, how can you review FoxNews?
> Or,
>> > is
>> >> > it just that CNN is simply more suited to your ideology?
>> >>
>> >> Ermm. Nope. I like the Wall STreet Journal, The Atlantic and the
>> > scrappy
>> >> little New Hampshire Gazette. Fox news DOES have a website, you
> know,
>> > AND a
>> >> local affiliate in Boston that broadcasts some of the cable news
>> > stuff.
>> >>
>> >> I posted a reply to G.A.'s reference to baseball players (?) going
> on
>> > the
>> >> Queer Eye show. He was making note of that he'd seen an
> advertisement
>> > for
>> >> the players' presence on the program. That's more than I knew of
> it.
>> > I've
>> >> never seen an episode of Sex and the City - isn't that on HBO or
>> > something
>> >> like that? Don't have premium channels, only basic.
>> >>
>> >> >>Here's another one Turin. Last Tuesday, the WSJ
ran two really
>> > interesting
>> >> >>articles - one about how China has made inroads
in EVERY country
> in
>> > Africa
>> >> >>in the last 5 years. They are building
infrastructure across the
>> > continent.
>> >> >>They are rebuilding the Nigerian rail system,
have paved 80% of
> the
>> > state
>> >> >>highways in Rwanda, are working in over a dozen countries
>> > rebuilding
>> >> >>electrical grids and telephone services, are
running the largest
>> > copper mine
>> >> >>in Zambia. And are increasing their influence
while America is
>> > barely
>> >> >>hanging on, and in many cases, losing influence.
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> > That is a stretch.  China, the 'altruistic nation'.
>> >>
>> >> I wasn't saying it was.
>> >> >
>> >> > China, who persecutes, imprison's, and torture's young AND old
> for
>> > the
>> >> > practice of Falun Gong.
>> >> >
>> >> > China's occupation and stranglehold on Tibet.
>> >>
>> >> :(
>> >
>> > Agreed.
>> >
>> >>
>> >> > China, continually rattling swords at Taiwan.
>> >> >
>> >> > China, whose industrial pollution is so bad,
especially mercury,
> it
>> >> > effects us here in the U.S.
>> >> >
>> >> > China, who is building the largest dam in the world to control
> the
>> >> > flow of the Mekong River, which will effect the flow of water
> and
>> >> > major dependency on it downriver in Laos, Thailand, Myanmar,
>> > Cambodia,
>> >> > Vietnam.  These countries benefit from recurring flooding
> (despite
>> >> > damage and minimal fatality).  to replenish the soil.  Not to
>> > mention
>> >> > the effects the dam will have on native species of fish.
>> >> >
>> >> > "Flooding is a way of life along the lower
Mekong River in
> Vietnam
>> > and
>> >> > Cambodia. Every year between August and November,
monsoon rains
>> > fill
>> >> > the rivers of Southeast Asia, and the Mekong River Delta
> broadens
>> > well
>> >> > past its dry season levels. The annual floods carry
> nutrient-rich
>> > silt
>> >> > to farmland around the river and provide the
moisture needed to
>> > grow
>> >> > vast fields of rice. Vietnam is the second largest exporter of
> rice
>> > in
>> >> > the world behind Thailand, and the Mekong River
Delta is one of
> two
>> >> > primary rice-growing areas in the country. The
second is the Red
>> > River
>> >> > Delta in the north."
>> >> >
>> >> > From:  Flooding on the Mekong River
>> >> >
>> >
> http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/NaturalHazards/shownh.php3?img_id=12469
>> >> >
>> >> >>Here's a full paragraph from the article:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> "China has simply exploded into Africa, as in
> 'Katie-bar-the-door
>> > stuff.'"
>> >> >>says Walter Kantsteiner, a former U.S. assistant
secretary of
> state
>> > for
>> >> >>African affairs. Adds Rep. Ed Royce, a
Californian Republican
> and
>> > vice
>> >> >>chairman of a House subcommittee that deals with Africa:
> "China's
>> > increasing
>> >> >>engagement in Africa is a concern and we need to
focus on it
> before
>> > Beijing
>> >> >>becomes fully established."
>> >> >>
>> >> >>Here's the rub: China has no qualms about doing
business with
>> > countries like
>> >> >>Nigeria, or other brutal, corrupt dictatorships.
It is dropping
> 300
>> > million
>> >> >>in Zimbabwe to rebuild it's electrical grid, Mugabe's UN
> sanctions
>> > be
>> >> >>damned. Also, since most of the businesses going
in are state
>> > owned, they
>> >> >>turn a modest 3% profit, if at all, while Western
businesses so
>> > used to
>> >> >>short term, high profits for the stakeholders, won't even
> consider
>> > an effort
>> >> >>unless at least a 15% profit margin is sustainable.
>> >> >
>> >> > Of course, the corruption will stop and the people themselves
> will
>> >> > "profit".  Dictator's get what they want,
China gets what it
>> > wants..
>> >> > It's a win-win plan.  Except for the poor.
>> >>
>> >> You think the Chinese govenrment isn't corrupt itself? It's
>> > communist! It is
>> >> totally corrupt, and the countries it does business with may very
>> > well stay
>> >> that way.
>> >>
>> >> Besides that, who was it sold them the tools over the years to get
>> > them this
>> >> ability to expand? That's what I'm pissed about. Oooooh, we can
> make
>> > them be
>> >> like us and have capitalism and they'll be free - yeah right, and
>> > there's a
>> >> few people from Tiananmen Square that might disagree with that!
>> >
>> > The Chinese appear to be extracting the benefits of capitalism
> without
>> > feeling a necessity to become democratic.  In that sense, they
>> > certainly have an advantage over us in that they can move more
> swiftly
>> > on several fronts getting ahead of us, while we do indeed help them
> do
>> > so.  And I share your anger over that.
>>
>> The danger of the modern business model being embraced by a political
>> culture that is totalitarian. In today's WSJ, there is a wonderful
> article
>> written in the editorial section about the Pope, and why, in spite of
> the
>> fact of an infinitesimally small numbers of Catholics in China, the
>> government there was afraid of letting him set foot on their soil, so
> strong
>> was the moral authority and ability ot undermine inhuman value
> systems that
>> he had.
>
> I was reading an article today that credited the Pope, Reagan, and
> Spanish King Juan Carlos I (for opening his country to democratic
> elections) for doing the most to defeat communism.  I think Margaret
> Thatcher should have been included as well.  That article also cited
> the Pope's moral authority, especially his influence in Poland.
>
>> >
>> >>
>> >> Don't worry, next they'll bust a move on Taiwan,
>> >
>> > As I've stated on other posts, my son is in the military.  My wife
> was
>> > expressing concern about Iran being the next hotspot, but I'm not
>> > convinced it is.  I think we might be facing problems in Taiwan
> before
>> > that; either that, or the Chinese will wait until we're
> sufficiently
>> > distracted elsewhere before moving on Taiwan.
>>
>> Here's to hoping that

...it doesn't get to that state. (oops, forgot to finish that sentence)
>
> My fear is that a move on Taiwan will provoke a response from Japan,
> and that might draw us in.
>
>> >
>> >> and will hold SO much of
>> >> our debt, we will be unable to stop them, lest they dump US
> dollars
>> > onto the
>> >> international money markets and tank the remainder if it's value.
>> >
>> > Do you think they'd move that arbitrarily?  Their currency is
> pegged to
>> > ours, and right now it's to their financial advantage to stay that
> way;
>> > it certainly makes it easier for them to fund their African
> activities.
>> >
>> Honestly, I don't know for sure. They DO have their yuan pegged to
> the
>> dollar and the Fed wants that to change - I know that it is a bone of
>> contention with the Bush administration, but consider that if we DO
> get our
>> way on that, it could mean that they would have less incentive to
> stay any
>> hand of that nature.
>
> Perhaps, but maybe it's best not to have the particular sword hanging
> over us any longer.  Short term pain for long term gain?

You got it. No one wants to take the bite - I think it's that we've gotten
too soft. Between the WTC attack forcing us to spend money at a time we
really weren't ready to, and Bush sending the troops into Iraq - we've been
outfoxed and stuffed into a hole, because the main monetary philosophy in
this country isn't to eschew debt. Voodoo economics indeed.

Not to get too tangentally off track, I remember back to when Ross Perot was
running for president and in one of the debates he was in, he stated that
the one thing he learned from his years with GM, was when dealing with
arabs, you needed to realize that you'll never get one up on them. They are
the masters of wheeling and dealing. There is a converse realization that
they also know when to cost you: any good businessman who's out to win
understands this. I think for all of the skills of politicians, they are
plain out naive when it comes to seeing whole financial costs. Bin Laden
certainly didn't miss it..
>
>> Just remember, that last week, the South Korean central
>> bank started to speak of 'diversification' away from US dollars
> (presumably
>> to euros), and it sent the markets into a spastic fit - and this was
> just
>> them talking about it!
>
> Yeah, but I think they were doing that to counter all the talk here of
> pulling our troops out.

Oooo, perhaps. Hadn't thought of that, but it would be a leverage point.
Again, it gets back to us being held captive to foriegn nations who hold our
debt. Ouch! This is not good.
>
>> >
>> >>
>> >> See how this works when you let yourself get leveraged by debt?
>> >
>> > Remember the 80's?
>>
>> Yep.
>> >
>> >>
>> >> Fuckin' Kruschev got it right about American business, the little
>> > communist
>> >> prick.
>> >
>> > And we got it right about communism.
>>
>> Uh huh, but we're not embracing their economic system, they are
> embracing
>> OURS and will shove us into the dirt with it.
>>
>> The truth is, China is seeing the unrest in their rural provinces and
>> pushing development into those areas - they rightly see that a
> materially
>> kept populace guarantees a fair degree of status quo - people who
> have shiny
>> things have a tendency in their lives to focus on the goods and
> become
>> rather apolitical and complacent. Give them more materially, and you
> can
>> keep them happy. It's what the government here depends on.
>
> Sure, but does this eventually--and even inexorably--lead to a freer
> country?  After all, a more prosperous people tend to want to have more
> direct influence on their politics, if for nothing more than to
> increase their comfort.

Where's the line between comfort and decadence though? No one ever got any
kind of internal fortitude and an appreciation of liberty by being kept.
These things have to be fought for, the drive needs to be renewed EVERY
generation - and it's now going on the third one in this country, that's
taking it all for granted.

>Why else would France and Germany be scared to
> death to do anything to upset the entitlement applecart, unless they
> were afraid of politicial suicide?

You know for all of the hand wringing and finger pointing that Americans
make about the european entitlements, and how bad they are for business,
what still gets missed is that the citizens there DO have things like health
coverage. I don't have health insurance, nor does my husband - and thanks to
the pro-business legislature in New Hampshire, we got a bill last year,
HB1100, that was passed ostensibly to lower insurance costs by giving
providers the ability to 'cherry pick' their coverage. What it did was lower
insurance costs for 2% of the businesses and raised the roof on the rest, so
much so, that 60% of the smallest companies cannot afford to buy coverage
anymore. There are less people insured now than 12 months ago - or more in
trouble as they transfer their debt around to pay for the premium hikes. Is
a system of greed driven middlemen really better? I'm coming to despise the
health insurance industry, but that's another thread entirely.

> I realize an argument can be made
> with regards to a tipping point and whether or not Western style
> civilizations have reached it, but China wouldn't be anywhere near that
> point.

I agree and the thing I think is, as long as the communists, who do have a
humongous population, have the benefit of moving it forward materially, even
incrementally, they also have the benefit of continuing their hold on power.
>
>>
>> The rub may be, as the American middle class gets more and more
> squeezed,

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