BK>>>  Total labor cost is about $55/hr for GM, $49/hr for Toyota and
 BK>>>  Honda. From what I have read GMs cost will drop over the term of
 BK>>> the contract. Adjusted for inflation.

 BA>> That includes the benefits paid to retired workers and the families
 BA>> of retired workers?

 RW> With the benefits that UAW workers get, the hourly rate is
 RW> closer to $72/hour. Toyota doesn't offer that many bennies
 RW> because they don't choose to deal with a union. They'd
 RW> rather close their plant first.

 Toyota doesn't pay that much because Toyota has no retired
 workers to think about. His $72/hr includes those retired
 workers. Without that it's about $55/hr. Compared to Toyota's
 $49/hr. And, as the older GM workers retire that cost will drop
 near Toyota's.

 Toyota has no problem dealing with a union in Japan, but they
 have contempt for American workers so they get away with
 whatever they can. They really have more contempt for America in
 general. Which appears to be common with Japanese business. It
 was Toshiba that sold that machining equipment to the
 Soviets, that allowed them to make their nuclear subs much
 quieter. American technology that was restricted, but they
 resold it anyway. The president of Sony wrote part of the book
 "The Japan That Can Say No", which was very critical and
 dismissive of America.

 BA>> I don't think so.  Health care benefits alone for GM amounted to over
 BA>> $1,300 of the price of every vehicle GM made - and that was several
 BA>> years ago, it's probably more than that now.

 BA>>>> full pay for not working isn't nonsense either.

 BK>>>  Does that make it a good thing they do not get full pay for not
 BK>>>  working? Should Toyota drop their no layoff policy?

 RW> Toyota in San Antonio has laid off workers and closed down
 RW> certain parts of their assembly plant. It seems that nobody

 Toyota has dropped their no layoff policy, just as the American
 auto companies have shut down the job bank.

 ...

 BA>> Kawasaki has a no layoff policy, too.  Or at least they did.  During
 BA>> a plant shutdown at their Lincoln NE plant they had some of their
 BA>> otherwise idle work force assisting the city.

 BK>>>  Believe it, GM is not going to give full pay for not working.

 RW> Especially now that the government is forcing them into
 RW> bankruptcy protection. If the UAW doesn't give GM
 RW> concessions, they won't be working.

 They did not give full pay for not working before the bailouts.
 And the UAW has been giving concessions for years.

 BA>>>> Auto workers in general, IMO, are grossly overpaid.

 BK>>>  CEOs, in general, IMO, are grossly overpaid.

 BA>> Depends on the CEO.  IMO most of them are.

 BK>>>  Why do you object to autoworkers earning a middle class wage?

 BA>> Because $40/hour plus benefits is too much to pay for what is
 BA>> basically unskilled labor.

 RW> In fact, unskilled labor should be getting minimum wage.

 And who is anointed to say what anyone should be paid? The pay
 has more to do with the desirability of the work than the skill
 required, in any society that has true opportunity to advance.

 BA>> Skilled craftsmen make less than that in most places.

 RW> Journeyman Tool & Die Makers don't make that much. Without
 RW> them, there woldn't be any mass production.

 UAW journeyman tool and die makers are the ones making the
 highest pay, not unskilled line workers.

 And experienced workers produce better than inexperienced
 workers at any skill level.


BOB KLAHN bob.klahn{at}sev.org   http://home.toltbbs.com/bobklahn

... Remember...sometimes the dragon wins.
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