BK>>>>  After all, since the american auto makers don't pay that much
 BK>>>>  less than Toyota, The idea that the American auto workers are
 BK>>>>  the problem is nonsense.

 BA>>> Forty bucks an hour plus benefits for what is basically
 BA>>> unskilled labor is not nonsense.  Receiving full or nearly

 BK>>  Yes, it is, since that is not what unskilled workers get.

 BA> It certainly is.  Auto workers are basically unskilled
 BA> labor and they make more than the mechanics that have to
 BA> fix their mistakes.

 Bob, you are ignoring the facts, even when they are in front of
 your face. I gave you the highest rate, $32.83/hr. And unskilled
 beginners go as low as $14/hr.

 BK>> Oh,
 BK>>  while we are at it, why would any salary for unskilled work, no
 BK>>  matter how high, be objectionable. Remember, the law of supply
 BK>>  and demand does *NOT* have anything in it to say how skilled the
 BK>> labor is, only on what it takes to hire people to do it. Would  you
 BK>> want to do factory work for $10 or $15/hr?

 BA> Depends.

 IOW, a non-answer. Why do you think the law of supply and demand
 should be repealed?

 BK>>  Since Toyota's *average* hourly pay is within a few dollars of
 BK>>  the American automakers, it must not be too high. It most
 BK>>  certainly is not $40/hr. Not even for skilled workers.

 BK>>  I just looked it up. Current top pay is $32.83/hr. That's top
 BK>>  skilled labor.

 BA> UAW ain't skilled labor.

 Bob, you just displayed ignorance of the reality of factory
 work. You see those videos of foreign factories with robotics,
 well they have that in American plants also.

 Major auto company UAW milwrights, machinists, tool and die
 makers, electricians, and machine repairmen are top of the line.
 And machine repairmen are not just mechanics, but highly skilled
 level of machine repair.

 A factory is not all assemblers and machine operators, every
 machine out there needs to be maintained. And that is done by
 maintenance personel in house. One of my former co-workers went
 to one of the automakers doing the same job. They have computer
 controls, as do a lot of modern factories. Look at the local JR
 college or tech school requirements for an Associates degree in
 the various mechanical and electrical and electronic
 technologies. Our apprenticeship programs require *MORE*
 academic training and shop training than those degrees. And auto
 makers programs are rated just as high.

 BK>>  Bottom level pay is about $14/hr. I haven't found a breakdown of  all
 BK>> the levels.

 BK>>  Total labor cost is about $55/hr for GM, $49/hr for Toyota and
 BK>>  Honda. From what I have read GMs cost will drop over the term of  the
 BK>> contract. Adjusted for inflation.

 BA> That includes the benefits paid to retired workers and the
 BA> families of retired workers?  I don't think so.  Health

 We were talking about the pay of workers, not former workers.
 Pensions are out of a pension fund, not current cash flow.
 Medical benefits have been moved to a similar fund.

 The only real problem is the lack of a real national health care
 plan to pick up the difference. All Americans should have full
 health coverage, which would eliminate the health benefits
 problem for all employers.

 BA> care benefits alone for GM amounted to over $1,300 of the
 BA> price of every vehicle GM made - and that was several years
 BA> ago, it's probably more than that now.

 Every other industrialized country has national health care,
 which is their big advantage. The transplants do not have that
 burden because they were not here 30 years ago. They are
 probably counting on the US haveing national health care before
 it becomes a problem for them.

 One way or another the employer pays for health care. Either
 they pay for insurance, or they increas employee's pay so the
 employees can pay for it. The only alternatives are govt health
 care or none.

 BA>>> full pay for not working isn't nonsense either.

 BK>>  Does that make it a good thing they do not get full pay for not
 BK>>  working? Should Toyota drop their no layoff policy?

 BA> Kawasaki has a no layoff policy, too.  Or at least they
 BA> did.  During a plant shutdown at their Lincoln NE plant
 BA> they had some of their otherwise idle work force assisting
 BA> the city.

 Google the automakers job bank. They did the same thing. I say
 did, the job bank was shut down.

 BK>>  Believe it, GM is not going to give full pay for not working. If
 BK>> they had to pay out the full pay they would have the people  working.

 BA>>> Auto workers in general, IMO, are grossly overpaid.

 BK>>  CEOs, in general, IMO, are grossly overpaid.

 BA> Depends on the CEO.  IMO most of them are.

 That's what "in general" means.

 And auto workers, earning a middle class income, are not
 overpaid, the rest of the working class, those earning less than
 a middle class income, are underpaid.

 BK>>  Why do you object to autoworkers earning a middle class wage?

 BA> Because $40/hour plus benefits is too much to pay for what
 BA> is basically unskilled labor.  Skilled craftsmen make less
 BA> than that in most places.

 When you get your numbers right you may realize how wrong you
 got it. Auto workers earn less than $40/hr plus benefits.

 And whatever the skill level of a worker, why shouldn't a worker
 who contributes and does necessary work earn a middle class
 wage? Can you explain that one? What is there in the law of
 economics that says even unskilled workers should be poor? Is
 that a requirement of the law, government or nature or
 economics?

 Can you think of any job that does not require a college degree
 that you will agree should earn a middle class wage? Aren't
 there a lot of college degree jobs that really don't require the
 degree, and maybe should not earn a middle class wage?

 If people who are willing to work do not deserve a decent wage,
 why should anyone be willing to work?



BOB KLAHN bob.klahn{at}sev.org   http://home.toltbbs.com/bobklahn

... The less they pay you the more they want for it.  Metzger's law.
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