On 01-07-98, KEITH KNAPP declared to DAVID HARTUNG:
KK>We're arguing around a much more important point here, so let me
KK>state that point more clearly:  Do you believe the US government should
KK>maintain a clear separation of church and state?
Not as the term has come to mean.  Neither did our founders generally,
which is why the idea rests on a statement in a single personal letter,
that by Thomas Jefferson to Baptists in Danbury Connecticut in 1802.
Those Baptists had expressed complaint to Jefferson concerning their
state's religious establishment (which they later managed to have
repealed).  Jefferson's "wall", he believed prevented any federal action
whatever with respect to such establishments:
  "In matters of religion I have considered that its free exercise is
  placed by the constitution independent of the powers of the general
  government.  I have therefore undertaken on no occasion to prescribe
  religious exercises suited to it, but have left them, as the
  constitution found them, under the direction and discipline of the
  church or state authorities acknowledged by the several religious
  societies." - Thomas Jefferson, 2nd Inaugural Address
Note the reference to STATE authorities with respect to religious
matters.  As a Virginian, Jefferson acted to repeal its religious
establishment exactly where such action properly belongs - in and
through the Virginia legislature, NOT through any power of federal
government, which power it was not granted.  Unlike so many today,
including current idiot courts, Jefferson knew what the First Amendment
*really* means.
The idea hasn't been confined strict separationists in this country
either, who twist and distort the First Amendment beyond all shadow of
resemblance to its original meaning and intent.  Our Constitution
quite simply neither says or implies any such thing, nor do any other
state documents of the time.
Others, however, have:
  "...the church is to be separated from the state and the school from
  the church, and the right of religious and antireligious propaganda is
  accorded to every citizen."
    -  Constitution of the Russian Socialist Federated Soviet Republic,
       Article Two, Para. 13
Our forefathers had a far different view, believing that while the
government must not in any way control religion, it must itself be
influenced and guided by it, and acknowledge and honor God, the true
author of our liberty ("God who gave us life gave us liberty." -
Jefferson):
   "When Protestant Christians came to this country they possessed and
   subdued the land.  They worshipped God and his son Jesus Christ as
   the Saviour of the World, and acknowledged the scriptures to be their
   rule of faith and practice.  They introduced their religion into
   their families, their schools, and their colleges.  They abstained
   from all ordinary business on the Lord's Day and devoted it to
   religion.  They built churches, erected school-houses and taught
   their children to read the Bible and to receive and obey it as the
   Word of God.  They formed themselves as Christians into municipal and
   state organizations.  They acknowledged God in their legislative
   assemblies.  They prescribed oaths to be taken in his name.  They
   closed their courts, their places of business, their legislatures,
   and all places under public control, on the Lord's Day.  They
   declared Christianity to be part of the common law of the land.  In
   the process of time thousands have come among us who are neither
   Protestants or Christians ... All are welcomed; all are admitted to
   equal rights and privileges.  All are allowed to acquire property,
   and to vote in every election, made eligible to all offices, and
   invested with equal influence in all public affairs.  All are allowed
   to worship as they please, or not to worship at all, if they see fit.
   No man is molested for his religion or for his want of religion.  No
   man is required to profess any form of faith, or join any religious
   association.  More than this cannot reasonably be demanded.  More,
   however, is demanded.  The infidel demands that the government should
   be conducted on the principle that Christianity is false.  The
   atheist demands that it should be conducted on the assumption that
   there is no God, and the positivist on the principle that men are not
   free agents.  The sufficient answer to all this is that it cannot
   possibly be done." - Charles Hodge, Princeton, 1876
Bob     /\-/\   - proud Ilk   homebody@galstar.com
C.A.T. ( o o ) Chapter Ilks
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Green Country - Oklahoma      http://www.galstar.com/~homebody/
 * SLMR 2.1a * God who gave us life gave us liberty. - Jefferson
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