Mulling over George Pope to Steve Asher 16 Oct 2005

SA>  GP> 1) You must not murder.
SA>
SA> OK, a reasonable person might understand this as meaning that one must
SA> not kill another person maliciously and without provocation (or however
SA> a nation's laws define murder).

 GP> The Torah clearly defines "murder" versus "homicide"

SA> A "noahide court" might include such things as abortion; striking a
SA> pregnant woman & killing the fetus; killing someone who is terminally

 GP> Then the Noachide court would be contradicting direct statements
 GP> from God regarding miscarriage/abortion(per your example)

SA> ill or falling off the top of a cliff - no "euthanasia" /
mercy killing;
SA> if a person sees someone pursuing another person with the obvious intent
SA> of murdering him, & the observer is able to prevent the murder by
SA> wounding the intending murderer, but kills him instead is guilty of
SA> murder; taking the mother's life to save the fetus is murder; suicide
SA> is forbidden; if a "ger toshov" kills an Israelite unintentionally
SA> but negligently he is liable for the death penalty; possibly,
SA> masturbation would be murder (wasting semen) -  possibly using a
SA> condom with his wife before he has fulfilled his obligation to
SA> bring a son and daughter into the world might be murder.

 GP> You're certainly adding much to the words & intent of Scripture!
 GP> Any "Noachide Court" would have to take into consideration all
 GP> legal precedent as established by the High Judge Himself.

No, I am adding nothing to the words & intent of Scripture. I am not
seeking to have counterfeit "Noahide Laws" implemented. I reject them
in favour of salvation and eternal life freely given by grace through
faith in Jesus Christ. I am simply pointing out how those who seek to
implement and administer "Noahide Laws" are interpreting them.

For anyone "lurking", please check out the source, and search on
such terms as "Noahide Laws", if you are interested in knowing more
about these "Laws", which have their origin is such sources as the
Babylonian Talmud - "Mystery, Babylon the Great".

From "Moshiach Online" - The Creed Of Noah: Murder
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Murder
Chaim Clorfene and Yakov Rogalsky

Definition of murder; abortion; self-defense; suicide; manslaughter;
masturbation

1. The commandment prohibiting murder is explicitly stated to Noah by
God: "Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed,
for He made man in the image of God" (Gen. 9:6).

2. A Noahide who kills a human being, even a baby in the womb of its
mother, receives the death penalty. This means that one who strikes a
pregnant woman, thereby killing the fetus, incurs the death
penalty.[1] (The act must have been done at least forty days after
conception.[2] Before forty days, the act is in the category of
destruction of man's seed, and the transgressor is liable for
punishment from heaven, not by a court on earth.)

3. Men and women have an equal responsibility to observe the
prohibition against murder, and any act for which a man is held
liable, a woman is equally held liable.[3]

4. If a person kills one who is terminally ill or is falling from the
top of a cliff or is certain to die momentarily for any other reason,
he transgresses the prohibition against murder and is liable for
punishment by the courts.[4] This judgment places the idea of mercy
killing or euthanasia squarely in the category of murder.

5. If one pushes a person onto railway tracks and a train subsequently
comes and kills him, or if one leaves a person in a situation where he
will surely starve to death, although the action only indirectly
causes the person's death, it is murder and the act is punishable by
the courts.

6. If a person sees someone pursuing another for the obvious or
suspected intent of committing murder or with the intent of causing
the pursued to commit a sin, and the observer is able to stop the
pursuer by wounding him, but kills him instead, he transgresses this
commandment and receives the death penalty. If, however, the person
himself is being pursued, he is free to take any action necessary to
save his own life.[5]

7. Authorities disagree as to whether it is permissible for a Noahide
to kill a fetus in order to save the life of the mother. But all agree
that taking the mother's life to save the fetus is murder and
punishable by the courts.[6]

8. If a Noahide kills someone through a messenger, both the messenger
and the one who sent him are liable for punishment as murderers.[7]

9. A person is commanded to allow himself to be killed rather than
kill. This means that if people try to compel a person on pain of
death to kill someone, he must not commit murder regardless of the
consequences.[8]

10. Suicide is forbidden under the Seven Universal Laws.[9]

11. There is no place of legal refuge for a murderer. Any relative (on
the father's side) of a murder victim who can legally inherit property
of the deceased may designate himself a "blood avenger." If the murder
was committed intentionally with malice aforethought, it is the blood
avenger's obligation to see that the murderer is brought to trial.

12. If the killing was manslaughter - that is, if the killer acted
unintentionally but negligently, and it is a matter of a ger toshav
(proselyte at the gate, a Noahide who lives according to the Seven
Universal Commandments) killing another ger toshav, the killer flees
to a designated city of refuge until his trial comes up. If the courts
rule that he did kill but unintentionally, he must return to the city
of refuge and reside there until the High Priest of the Jews dies (the
death of the righteous is an atonement for the generation), then he is
free to return to his home. If he leaves the city of refuge prior to
the death of the High Priest, the blood avenger may find him and kill
him. The blood avenger is held harmless for killing the
manslaughterer.

If a ger toshav kills an Israelite unintentionally but negligently,
or if he kills another ger toshav because he thought that it was
permissible (this is considered tantamount to killing intentionally),
he is liable for the death penalty.

If a Noahide who does not live according to the Seven Universal
Commandments kills another Noahide in a circum!stance of manslaughter,
he is subject to the death penalty and the city of refuge affords him
no protection.

In any case where a blood avenger kills the manslaughterer, if a
relative of the slain manslaughterer seeks revenge against the blood
avenger and kills him, that relative is deemed a murderer and is
prosecuted as such.[10]

13. There is a difference of opinion as to whether the Seven Universal
Commandments include the commandment forbidding the willful
destruction of a man's seed through masturbation or any other act of
wasting semen.[11] All agree, however, that sexual relations with a
woman who is incapable of bearing children is not considered wasting
semen. One opinion is that the commandment to be fruitful and
multiply, having been given to Noah, but not repeated to Moses, was in
force only during those generations before the historical event of
Mount Sinai. In those early times, wasting semen was considered among
the most heinous of sins and a chief reason that God brought the Flood
to destroy the world. Moreover, the Torah clearly teaches that Judah's
two sons, Er and Onan, were killed by God, for "the thing which he
(Onan) did was evil in the eyes of the Lord" (Gen. 38:10). But this
event also occurred before the giving of the Torah on Mount Sinai.
This opinion concludes that since the commandment against wasting seed
was not repeated at Mount Sinai, it is no longer in effect as part of
the Seven Universal Commandments.[12]

The other opinion states that despite its not being repeated at Mount
Sinai, since it was originally part of the Seven Universal Commandments, 
a man must not willfully destroy his seed, though the act is not
punishable by the courts. After a man has fulfilled his minimal
obligation of bringing a son and a daughter into the world, if he
wishes then to use contraceptive devices, he should use those types
that do not act directly on the semen.[13] Also, according to this
viewpoint, masturbation would be strictly forbidden.

In spiritual terms, the reason for the great concern and strictness
concerning the wasting of a man's seed is that it is considered the
willful destruction of his life-giving force and equated with life
itself. Therefore, the destruction of a man's seed is related closely
to murder, and more, to the murder of his own children.

[1] Mishneh Torah, Laws of Kings, chapter 9, law 4

[2] Shulchan Arukh, Yoreh Deah, chapter 305, law 23

[3] Babylonian Talmud, Sanhedrin 57b

[4] Mishneh Torah, Laws of Kings, chapter 9, law 4

[5] Ibid., Laws of Wounds and Damages, chapter 8, law 10, see
commentary of Mishneh l'Melech

[6] Babylonian Talmud, Sanhedrin 59a, Tosefos, "There is nothing
known..."

[7] Bereshit Rabba, chapter 34; Mishneh Torah, Laws of Murder and
Guarding the Soul, chapter 2, law 2

[8] Ibid., Laws of Kings, chapter 10, law 2

[9] Gen. 9:5, commentary of Rashi

[10] Mishneh Torah, Laws of Kings, chapter 10, law 1; Laws of Murder
and Guarding the Soul, chapter 5, laws 3 and 4

[11] Shulchan Arukh, Even HaEzer, chapter 23, law 5, the RaMoh (Rabbi
Moses Isserles)

[12] Babylonian Talmud, Sanhedrin 59b, Tosefos, "Behold, be fruitful
and multiply." .

[13] Mishneh Torah, Laws of Kings, chapter 10, law 7, Mishneh
l'Melech. "We return to the words of the Rashbah..."


Source: "Moshiach Online"
http://www.moshiach.com/action/morality/murder.php

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Cheers, Steve..

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