SA>Programming should replace foreign language.
 CB> I have heard of colleges offering programming as an alternative to 
 CB> foreign language instruction, but I've not heard of similar options at 
 CB> the K-12 level. 
The larger question should be, how many students retain ANYTHING of their 
k-12 foreign language.  It is something for which most have NO application 
therefore they lose it and all that time is wasted.  Computer Programming is 
a language in every sense of the word, it is even cultural.  Colleges usually 
start from scratch any way but they continue to require foreign language as a 
high school requirement, what a waste.
SA> So, understanding true computer science makes my argument biased and SA> 
somehow unacceptable?  Can't a math teacher argue the benefits if 
SA> math?
 CB> The difference really lies with those who are NOT 
 CB> biased - i.e, the general non-teaching public.  
But the bias is there, and more so in the teaching public. The bias is 
ignorance. 
SA> Use of applications has NOTHING to do with programming.  EVERY non SA> 
computer class should be teaching applications not computer science SA> 
classes.
 CB> I guess it Was Rick Pedley who argued that even people using 
 CB> applications can only use them effectively if they can program them.  
Use of applications is not programming. It is interpetation.
SA> Are both degrees required to teach other fields?  Why cast 
SA> off those that have Computer Science degrees?  Why would 
SA> they be scared off?
 CB> I'm NOT trying to cast them off - I think there is definitely a need for 
 CB> specialists. 
Programming is not turning out specialists any more than math, science, or 
history.   My argument is that programming is a fundamental devevelopment of 
critical thinking skills, logic, organization, ets.  All the arguments for 
education to begin with.
 CB> I was curious as to how you envisioned the role of the certified 
 CB> computer teacher - and you now mention Computer Science.  At what levels 
 CB> do you think we should teach this topic?
Programming can be taught as low a level as a student can think logically.
First grade!  Give them the tolls and they will show you what they can do.  
Not all students can create with paper, clue & glitter.  Many want to turn 
out useful pieces of work. Most students are very fustrated with the 
refrigerator art they are required to make.
 CB> You continue to write very emotionally about this topic, 
Emotionally or passionatly?  I see this field being treated as a course on 
plumbing.  A valuable education but for the few.
SA>CB> I don't have any statistics in front of me, but I'd wager that SA>CB> 
that a significant portion (75% or more) of jobs done on computers SA>CB> 
across this nation on a daily basis are done at just that level.  
SA>This is the type of thinking that keeps computers in the 
SA>sterile environment of the computer lab.
 CB> I don't understand your comment here at all.  How so?  
Many schools place all the computers on one room, then place all of the 
facing the wall.
SA>CB> Programming is not required in order for the average end-user to SA>CB 
be proficient with a computer.
SA>
SA> If all you want to turn out in your school are "average end-
SA> users" then why teach marketing, statistics, any of the 
SA> sciences or history?  Average end users don't know how to think.
 CB> I don't know how your schools work, but ours require that students take 
 CB> only enough math, science and history to be average end-users.  
My whole point, programming immediatly goes beyong the end-user restriction.
SA>Knitting is programming....
 CB> I don't see the parallel - can you explain...
"Knit 2, purl 2"  is an operation that is repeated and gives you the ribbing 
stitch at the bottom of a sweater. One can soon realize that a change will 
create a new design. "knit 1 purl 1" is a seed stich. "Knit 1 row across and 
purl 1 row back" is a main body of the sweater.  Creativity, inginuity...
Continued...
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