Rod, at 08:48 on May 29 1995, you wrote to Bill Grimsley...

RS> Very simple really, what affects good spelling has SFA to do with what 
RS> affects being a good programmer, or getting programs to compile or run.

BG> We have discussed this previously in Avtech (I think), and I disagree no 
BG> less now than before.  Complex code is completely unforgiving when it finds 
BG> a spelling error, you know that as well as I do.

RS> Yes, but you have missed the point completely. 

Must be a national disease then, this "missing the point
utterly".  I asked my doctor for a cure, and he just laughed and said
"shoot Rod Speed".  I guess you're extremely lucky that I can't
buy my bullets on the NHS.  |-)

RS> Stuff like variable names arent learnt like spelling of english words are. 

Yeah, even a complete fuckwit like me knows that.

RS> They are much more ephemeral things than that and may well only be 
RS> used in a particular program. Particularly the more complex names 
RS> which are harder to get right. 

Which should make learning spelling even easier, not fucking harder.

RS> And they dont have the bizarre variation you get with english, 

Won't wash, Rod.  I'm not talking about incorrect tense, nor even
specifically grammar (although Christ knows that's bad enough these days),
but misspelling the root word, due to either laziness, or a simple
inability to learn by rote, and if it's the latter, they're fucked as
programmers.

RS> since you invent the stuff like variable names yourself.

Says nothing useful about correct spelling in general though.

RS> And part of the reason that modern languages are much more productive is 
RS> that you use declarations etc which catch misspelt variable and function 
RS> names, even if thats only with a warning message.

Missing the point utterly.  As usual.  |-)

The idea is to spell it correctly in the first place, not continually have
it spew when trying to compile.  So much for productivity...

RS> Its nothing like spelling, so being bad at spelling proves SFA about 
RS> whether you can program effectively.

As you wish.  I'll just agree to disagree then.

BG> The only explanation I can offer is that their attitudes towards learning 
BG> are far more intense than ours, which is very much in keeping with my own 
BG> observation that the majority of local school kids are simply lazy 
BG> little shits.

RS> Or they have enough sense to realise that there are more important things 
RS> in life than perfect spelling.

BG> Missing the point utterly.

RS> Bullshit, you are faking away like mad Bill |-)

Nice synonym, "faking" for "clarification".  How come
whenever you fuck up, it's always "yeah, I could have said that more
clearly", but if it's somebody else, they're "faking like
mad" ?  Anyway, there was no fuck up.  You just enjoy rattling my
cage.  I know these things, so try harder boy.  |-)

BG> The spelling was merely an example of what appears to be the Asians' 
BG> totally different mindset and attitude towards learning in general.

RS> It proves SFA about anything much. 

Rubbish.  It proves that they try harder.  And generally succeed.

RS> Doing well at spelling is primarily a result of a particular type of 
RS> memory. Sure, if you dont have a very good memory for it, you can help with 
RS> dedication, but thats not what those winners of competitions like that are 
RS> usually, its normally just that they have the sort of memory that 
RS> favours that task.

It's not just spelling bees Rod, this applies across the board.  The simple
OBSERVED fact is that the ethnic minorities (and especially asians)
frequently just try harder, simple as that.

BG> Maybe possible loss of face comes into it, I don't know.

RS> Nope, its got SFA to do with it. 

I wouldn't be too sure about that.  It's actually very true.  Example, my
local pharmacist has employed a Vietnamese Buddhist pharmacology student
for a couple of years, and she not long ago graduated with honours (and
married at the same time), and she told me more than once that it was
extremely important for her to do well, so as not to shame her parents or
family.  That's just one example, but it proves that your SFA comment
doesn't apply.

RS> The success of asians in school stuff in general is just a combination of 
RS> two things, they tend to have a higher IQ than the dregs of our society, 

True, no argument with that at all.

RS> and they have the usual immigrant approach of trying harder and have a lot 
RS> more emphasis in their sub society on that sort of achievement. 

Sure, that's basically what I'm suggesting anyway.

RS> The same thing happened with the jews in previous generations, 
RS> particularly just after the war. The expectation that you will try 
RS> hard to get decent results to get somewhere in a academic sense is 
RS> a large part of it. It makes a HELL of a difference to how kids 
RS> perform in highschool say.

Yep, and their inherent attitudes almost ALWAYS come from their parents,
either directly or indirectly.  So why the fuck are you arguing the point
when we're essentially saying the same thing?

Regards, Bill
@EOT:

--- Msgedsq/2 3.10 alpha