On 01-08-98, ROY J. TELLASON declared to ROBERT PLETT:
RJT> RP> If you mean should your religion or mine, or the lack thereof,
RJT> RP> be the business of government, then the answer is emphatically
RJT> RP> no.
RJT>That's what I meant,  there.
That's what I figured. |-)
RJT> RP> OTOH, it *is* the business of government to submit itself, be
RJT> RP> guided by His revealed Word, and to honor the higher authority
RJT> RP> that is God Almighty.  Governments exist in the first place
RJT> RP> because God ordained them as His ministers, "an avenger who
RJT> RP> brings wrath upon the one who practices evil." (Rom 13:4)
RJT>This seems to me to be in direct conflict with the above paragraph.
RJT>How yo have that degree of involvement of religion in government and
RJT>yet say that religion is _not_ the business of government is
RJT>something that strikes me a real contradiction...
Calling it "involvement" mislabels and distorts it.  Nothing about
what's described there in any way involves government in your religious
affairs or mine, nor in any way makes yours or my religion or absence
of one its business.  Freedom of religion does not mean freedom from
exposure to it.
RJT> RP> Those above statements are in full accord with the thinking of
RJT> RP> our Founding Fathers who gave us a nation of liberty
RJT> RP> unparalleled in all of history.  We will not keep it if we
RJT> RP> reject that thinking, a fact that daily becomes more obvious
RJT> RP> the further we stray from it.
RJT>I don't doubt that at least some of those founding fathers were
RJT>religious individuals,
To say "some" mischaracterizes them.  Far and away the majority of them
were.
Theirs was a Christianity not of churches, church doctrines and
pronouncements, but rather of personal Bible reading.  The Bible was
their primer and their advanced text, and they studied it diligently.
They knew its teachings better than most who sat in ecclesiastic
positions, which is a primary reason they held church hierarchys in such
disdain and criticized them with venom.  Too many today mistake their
criticisms for unbelief, when in fact, the opposite is true, their very
belief being the driving force behind those criticisms.  As Jefferson
wrote to his friend, Dr. Benjamin Rush, "To the corruption of
Christianity, I am, indeed opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of
Jesus himself."
I share their view, and personally have no use for church hierachys
or much of clergy either, seeing the incredible distortions they have
visited on my Savior and on the teachings of the Bible.  I am a
Christian, not a Methodist, Baptist, Catholic, etc., or even Mennonite
(the local church I attend and hold membership in).
RJT>but it sure seems to me that they managed to keep most of it out of
RJT>government, at least at the federal level.
That mis-states the facts.  They kept the federal government out of
religion, all right, but they in no way kept religion out of government,
nor did they attempt to, nor did they consider such a thing desireable.
To the contrary, they insisted government reflect its submission to and
reliance on the God of the Bible.  The reflections of those facts are
everywhere in their writings, our government buildings, monuments, and
our traditions.
The nation still is witness to every newly-elected president swearing in
with one hand raised and the other on the Bible, the media itself
commenting on the Bible used being the same one George Washington had
his hand on.  Our currency says, "IN GOD WE TRUST", congress has had a
chaplain since the days of the Continental Congress, and still opens
with prayer, the Supreme Court opens with prayer, and the Court chamber
has the Ten Commandments on prominent display, and is watched over by a
statue of the great law-giver, Moses, who also oversees affairs in the
House.  The list is practically endless, and if you think about it, I've
no doubt you could come up with many more yourself, all of them handed
down to us by them, testimony to the fact that our Founding Fathers very
much intended this government operate on Biblical principles and
publicly affirm its submission to God lest it ever forget from whence it
came.
RJT>Back then, there was apparently a great deal more involvement of
RJT>religion in state and local governments.
An involvement they were determined the federal government in no way
interfere with.
RJT> RP> I say that even the most determined atheist supports his
RJT> RP> interests and his liberty by supporting the higher authority of
RJT> RP> the God of the Bible over government, even while choosing to
RJT> RP> reject Him.
RJT>I disagree with this statement.  How can someone who claims that
RJT>there isn't a god support the authority of one?
Insisting that a person or a government remain true to his/its own
beliefs and philosophy in no way commits an individual to sharing those
beliefs or that philosophy, nor implies it.  The Apostle Paul did not
share the beliefs of Rome, but he most certainly insisted Rome abide by
its own laws in his own self-interest.  One needn't share a set of
beliefs to recognize and appreciate the benefits those beliefs produce.
Few share the beliefs of my Old Order Mennonite (like the Amish and
often called that) neighbors, but believers and unbelievers alike
universally admire them for those beliefs and their commitment to them.
Historically, grounding our government on Christianity and the Bible
worked, producing the greatest liberty, and perhaps the greatest nation,
man has ever known.  What is more important, particularly to an atheist,
than that, especially when the alternatives all lead inevitably to
tyranny and government stealing his property?
Is being exposed to belief in Christ and the Bible really so terrible to
an atheist that it's worth sacrificing liberty in order to avoid it?
Is the connection between the increasing attacks on Christianity and the
Bible and expressions of belief in them in the public square, and the
decline of our society and rise of government tyranny so difficult to
see and comprehend?
Bob     /\-/\   - proud Ilk   homebody@galstar.com
C.A.T. ( o o ) Chapter Ilks
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Green Country - Oklahoma      http://www.galstar.com/~homebody/
 * SLMR 2.1a * Yes, Virginia, Absolute Truth does indeed exist.
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