lawrence,
Moderator wrote in a message to Alejandro Pelaez:
 M> Incidentally, it's also been my observation that most people whose
 M> primary language is not English, usually don't speak/translate as
 M> poorly as they -think- they do --
my first language is not english, actually it ranks about 9 or so down the 
list of central european, starting on the baltic coastline and moving south 
and east.
one other thing that i have noted (also, from personal; experience) is that 
us not 'natural' english speakers use language differenly. in that an 
(native) english speaker does so in a very flat and subjectively articulate 
manner. whereas the non-native speaker has more of a descriptive, objective, 
manner in thier usage. this is partially or wholly because they have to think 
about waht they are saying (that is to formulate the idea in the native 
language and then to translate it, verbatum, and then to english du jourerise 
the subsequent 'mess') and have so many vocabulary choices also they fear 
that they maynot be understood, and so, launch into a description of what 
they are saying as opposed to the native speakers assumptions that the person 
listening will understand because they know the assuptions being made and 
understand the 'shorthand' that is being used.
one other aspect just occured to me, native speakers of any language use the 
minimum number of words (either for laziness or economy ? i don't know) to 
convey a meaning or to eplain a proposition ... non-native speakers built 
descriptions by using similars and tieing in what is best described as 
flowery verse or as if they were delivering an anthology .. largely because 
this is how english is taught to those who have english as a second language.
one of the best examples of how this can best be seem is to go to germany or 
the netherlands where english is a compulsory second language and to listen 
to how the children of proficient english as a second language adults speak, 
use and think in english .. the differance is staggering and i would say sad, 
because we are loosing some of that grace and charm that english is capable 
off, instead we are getting a mechnical rendition of a harch and allmost 
featureless terrain .. enought to get the majority of the meaning across but 
not enough to convey the soul of the converstaion and in so doing we are 
loosing the art and skill of conversation.
the computer is dead long live language .. grin.
 M>  but then perhaps that's because us
 M> U.S. people are now constantly surrounded by lazy Americans who
 M> -cannot- speak or write English. 
this is not just true of americans, but us australians, the english 
themselves, but also of all other language groups the world over. it is a 
chore to learn language and how to use it properly.
now with ever increasing computersikls being forced upon our children so that 
the parents can justify a computer at home, for may and varied reasons that 
have, in truth, very little to do with the genuine educational requirements 
of their children. our children are starting to show benefits of this forced 
computerisation .. literacy skills are falling, numeracy is not so far behind 
either .. though i think we are starting to recover from the calculator wars 
of the seventies .. when i went to university we were allowed to use 
calculators only after we demonstrated consumate skill with the tasks that 
the calculator was suposed to be automating ... we endup having very good 
class averages and also demonstrated how a calculator could help those who 
knew the work and the corolory being those who didn't were, able to prove 
that they didn't far more ably with a calcultor .. thier answers became more 
wildly inacurate as thier articulation of the problem at hand was minced 
through the function keys that calculator had on its facia panel ... we all 
used hp 19, hp 25c and the like.
just another point of view, not so different, though.
cheers
regards ... jonathan
EMail: jlm@caamora.com.au
 ... i do all i can, with what i have, are you able to say the same ?
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